Vivek Shraya: How to Succeed as a TV Star

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway. 

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
Wendy? 

Wendy Mesley  0:08  
Yeah.

Maureen Holloway  0:09  
In her book, I'm Afraid of Men
, Vivek Shraya.  

Yeah.

Who is where transgendered woman of color and a renowned artist and musician and writer, she writes, 'What if you were to challenge yourself every time you feel afraid of me, and all of us who are pushing against gendered expectations and restrictions?'

Wendy Mesley  0:27  
Whoa, that sounds like sounds like a big challenge. But, but you like what, what are you afraid of?

Maureen Holloway  0:33  
Like, you know what, I am afraid, I'm not afraid of Vivec herself, although I am in awe of her talent and probably intimidated would be the right word. But I'm worried I would say the wrong thing. You know, and in this sort of well intentioned, middle aged white lady and yes, I'm still hanging on to middle age, that I'll just say something that's just going to sound stupid.

Wendy Mesley  0:55  
Well, I'm middle aged too- what does that mean?

 120.

So what if like, say, say it now? Like, what's the worst thing you could say? Like, go go for it?

Maureen Holloway  1:05  
Yeah. What's the worst thing you could say? I don't know. I've said some stupid things in my life. Like, ask my kids. I say something stupid, everyday, but it's mostly about making assumptions that some people might find offensive. 

Wendy Mesley  1:19  
Yeah, well, tell me about it. 

Maureen Holloway  1:21  
Race, color, gender and all this. 

Wendy Mesley  1:23  
Yeah. Don't Don't ask my daughter because I think everybody's done this. But you know, Vivek she's dealt with that all her life is what she means when she says let's challenge ourselves.

Maureen Holloway  1:33  
And it's not like she's not approachable, how to fail as a pop stars is her latest show. It's a TV series, based on her life stage show, and she calls it an anti success story. Growing up a nerdy little brown boy in Edmonton dreaming of becoming a pop star on the scale of Madonna.

Wendy Mesley  1:49  
I would like to be Madonna too. But but guess what? It didn't happen for Vivek. Or at least she didn't become Madonna the way that she thought she might.

Maureen Holloway  1:57  
Well being a pop star to a very time specific goal. Like I hate to tell you too, it's too late for us. 

Wendy Mesley  2:02  
No, no, yeah, we can do it.

Maureen Holloway  2:04  
 No, you got to accept your limitations. And there were a lot of obstacles in Vivek's way like like starting out as a nerdy little brown boy.

Vivek Shraya  2:39  
You do really?

Wendy Mesley  2:41  
Yeah well, we can talk about Edmonton, we can talk about Madonna. But I mean, the main thing is, is in the title, how to fail as a pop star. So Vivek says we don't acknowledge failure properly. We always we talk about success all the time. But we've really talked about the risks and challenges of finding that.

Maureen Holloway  3:04  
It's better to have loved in vain, loved and lost than never to have loved at all. That's what Edison said. But in any case, here's Vivek sitting here listening to his talk about her. How are we doing so far? 

Wendy Mesley  3:21  
Uh oh.

Vivek Shraya  3:26  
You're doing very good. That was really nice. That was like, probably the most creative and slightly most like out of body intro I've ever had. So thank you.

Wendy Mesley  3:40  
Yeah, we're so glad that you were I mean, you must be busy. You've got your the show how to fill as a pop star. It goes on. We're going to air this next week it's going to it's like it's airing now. It's kind of like a big deal. And I don't know how to fail. Like who's gonna watch that and yet, as Maureen says, it's about the challenge of failing. Go I don't know, what's a brand new way of looking at failing.

Maureen Holloway  4:06  
Let's talk more about that. What is it? So what does that mean to fail? Because you sure as hell don't strike anybody's as a failure. So let's talk about that.

Vivek Shraya  4:15  
Well, I mean, the show first of all, thanks so much for having me. This is really nice and yeah, thanks for making time for me. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting time because when I go on social media, like literally all every post of mine just has like the giant word fail like everywhere and so I have to do a lot of like internal work to remind myself we're talking about something very specific. You're not a failure as a human but you're talking about being a failure as a pop star, which is true you did fail it becoming a pop star. That's the point of the show. So yeah, I don't know.

Maureen Holloway  4:48  
But you do it with song and you entertain is so really the I understand what you mean about not being afraid to embrace failure because you have to. You're never gonna do anything if you don't. But you are I mean, you're not a pop star on the level of Lady Gaga or Madonna, but you are a pop star.

Vivek Shraya  5:09  
Oh, yeah, I mean, thank you. I don't know what else to say to that.

Wendy Mesley  5:15  
Why don't you sing? That would be, that would be good. 

Vivek Shraya  5:18  
*Vivek singing* Well you told me to sing, so what am I going to do. 

Wendy Mesley  5:35  
And you did and you did. What is that one of the songs that you sang at the West Edmonton Mall? Because I'm fascinated by that. We've heard so many stories, but I never realized that they had a talent show. So that was like your big break that I think like Madonna got her breakthrough starting at a mall, didn't she?

Vivek Shraya  5:49  
Well, Britney, Avril there was like a bunch of stars where they started them all. Yeah, we had something called Youth talent questa nd it was started out in the smaller malls. And then eventually, if you made it to the semifinals, you'd get to play at West Edmonton Mall, the pinnacle, and then our equivalent- are you all from our you Ontario based Toronto based?

Wendy Mesley  6:10  
Yeah Toronto based. Yeah.

Vivek Shraya  6:12  
Yeah. So like we had something in Edmonton that sort of like the CNE called Klondike Days. And so like the finals would have been a Klondike days if you made it to the finals. So I I'm from the, like this outside of Edmonton, so I would do these like, yeah, competitions in the food court. They just like makeshift table like outside like New York tries. And you'd be like, smelling in the food and singing your heart out to an audience and yeah, so it was fun to recreate that, like recreate that in the show, you know, like this sort of like that era, because it's such a normal thing for so many pop singers, like have to pay your dues and part of paying your dues is singing them all, apparently.

Maureen Holloway  6:53  
What was it? What was it like to cast yourself? But maybe you have two younger actors Christa Silva plays you as as a teen? And then Adrian Pavone? Is that how you have only as you as as a younger person, so but that's gotta be weird.

Vivek Shraya  7:11  
It was very weird. I mean, you know, that dinner table conversation you have really like, if an actor could play you in a movie of your life? Who would it be like, I feel like 95% of the population doesn't get to have that real. And so it's a very strange thing to actually be like, well, these are the two people that play me.

Maureen Holloway  7:30  
Were you part of the casting process?

Vivek Shraya  7:32  
I was I was I was very lucky that because the story is based on my life, producers, that sphere, and Vanessa Matsui, who directed the shows really wanted me to be part of like every phase and stage of the project. So I remember just like watching audition tapes, and my partner coming home and being like, what are you doing right now? And I'm like, I'm, this is potentially me. And he's like, You got a weird life. Like, this is very weird. What's happening? So yeah, very surreal. It's like, it's like kind of recreating your own multiverse, you know.

Maureen Holloway  8:07  
It would be.

Wendy Mesley  8:08  
Must have been so weird. And I guess the other the you've made jokes about the other title for your show could be 'A Star Not Born'. 

Vivek Shraya  8:22  
I mean, yeah, I mean, it's so funny, because this is how this project goes, right? It's like the moment you and this is why, to me, I think it's important to talk about failure is that I had this happen, where I would tell people, I'm working on a show or working on a play called How To Feel As A Pop Star, which is how this project started. And people would start listing my CD back out to me, you know, being like, oh, like, but what about your Mac campaign, you weren't jus on a billboard at Yonge. And Dundas, and you've gotten this nomination, and you know, it's very similar, where you're like, well, you're still a star. And again, I think it's coming from a well intentioned place. But I do think like, all jokes aside, it does prevent us from owning our disappointment, you know, owning that the pain of like the morning of letting a dream die. And I think that's actually a really universal experience. I think a lot of us have dreams. Like, you know, I don't know what your dreams were, but I don't know that it was sitting and chatting to me via you know.

Maureen Holloway  9:19  
I remember talking to the CEO of a very big company and asking him if he hadn't ended up doing this. What would he have liked to have been and he said, a hairstylist, but he was sincere. It was like that, and that opportunity was never there for him. He was sort of destined to do what he had to do, but for a lot of reasons. And so it's not that he's not a successful person. It's just that that aspect of his life never got to be nurtured. I know it sounds kind of funny and adorable, but he was sincere. 

Vivek Shraya  9:52  
No, but like, that's the thing is we all have these dreams. And again, we end up where we end up in life, you know, for various reasons. Some of it's systemic, some of it's outside of our control some of it's just circumstance. And, you know, I think there is a lot of pressure to own that to be like, well, you know, I'm happy things worked out this way. Or if I didn't open this door, this door door didn't close in my face. And I wouldn't have had this in this in this opportunity. Like, we're so quick to do that kind of work and, for me, the show in the project is really about like, pushing against that a little bit. Like what does it mean actually, to tell, you know, as I've been saying, an anti success story, especially in a culture that's so obsessed with us at all times, being like, look at me, I'm doing this look at me, I have a podcast Look at me, I you know, it's like, who are we when we're not just listing out our accomplishments and I think sometimes what we don't get to be is our disappointments are the rejections that we experienced, like we're we're not allowed to hold space for that. You know?

Wendy Mesley  10:50  
Why, I'm curious, why did you or why do you maybe want to be a pop star so bad? I heard somebody say on a podcast, of course, that men go in men become rock stars, because they want to get laid. So I thought that they're well, maybe I don't hope that there's something more to it for for you, but.

Vivek Shraya  11:09  
I mean, yeah, and I think the show pushes against, I think there is something about pop stardom. That seems really trivial. Like that's what's kind of cheeky, but the show, it's not like how did how to fail it like, you know, curing the virus. It's like how to fail at being the worst. Yeah, exactly. Like my little dream was just wanting to be silly old pop star. But I do think that some of that some of that lens is rooted in sexism. Like when I think of some of the biggest pop stars in the world, and people who have shaped our culture, you know, like Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Madonna, Diana Ross, like, those are women. And I feel like there's a way in which we talk about pop culture that somehow sometimes dismisses the contributions of those kinds of artists. But to answer your question more specifically, like, you know, as a brown, queer kid in Edmonton, who was experiencing relentless homophobia every day, I think that like, turning on much music, and seeing people connect in this way, and use their voice in a way, I was like, that's, that's my ship out here. That's, that's, that's how I'm going to survive. You know, like, and by out of here, I don't just mean Edmonton, it's like, if I can go on stage and have people praise me instead of, say something homophobic. That's how I can earn love, that's how I can, that's how we can get through that that's gonna give me meaning. And so I think, you know, some of that's a little displaced. As an adult, my relationship with the stage is very different. I try not to go on stage with the hope of just, you know, adoration. But I think as a kid, when all you're experiencing is hatred on a day to day basis, you are looking for where can you feel loved. And for me, pop stardom was the place that felt like I could, if I worked hard, and if I sang my heart out, people would love me.

Maureen Holloway  12:57  
There's also more acceptance, I think, certainly, I have a young friend who's who is a very talented theatrical actor who's going through, they're only 17. But they are transitioning or hoping to, and so I know the whole family and there's greater acceptance within musical theater than there is anywhere else and, and their parents are concerned that will, but that you can't live your life, you know, backstage or on stage, that there's a harsher reality. I guess my question to you Vivek is do you think it's easier or harder now for for kids like you were, and there are, who want to be popstars just want to be famous and want to be loved and want to be true to themselves? 

Vivek Shraya  13:42  
Yeah, I mean, again, like I think one of the things I tried to push back on too is like, I always have struggled with the word fame or celebrity and part of it is like, I think there's some people who like really want to be famous. And like, when I think of fame, I think of like being known for the sake of being known. And for me, my desire for pop stardom was actually really about connection. Like it wasn't like, I just want people to know me, I really wanted to be able to give back like, I'll never be able to give back to Sarah McLaughlin, and Fiona Apple and Tori Amos like, these are people who like their music, like, again, gave me another day to live and I'll never be able to repay that. But if I could make music that can make other people feel the way those artists made me feel, then my life would have meant something. And so for me, that's always been the intention. I think another thing that's been really interesting I'm working on the show is what is a pop star in 2023? I think there is a world and I think part of why people do race disagreed my CV back to me is there is a world in 2023 where you have, you know, a couple 1000 followers on social media and you're an influencer where you are kind of a modern pop star right. But again, for me, my ideas of pop stardom were cultivated around the 80s and 90s like playing giant stadiums and being on the David Letterman Show. And so I do think that in some ways, the music industry is a little bit more accessible because of the ways that People can create the songs on tick tock and you know, go viral. But I also think some of that is a little bit overstated. Like, I think for every person who goes viral, there's a lot of people who are making tic TOCs that nobody sees. I do think that in terms of progress, we are seeing more queer openly queer musicians in the pop world, but like, not a ton, you know, like, it's like Little NAS X and Sam Smith, you know, like, on that level, it's like, in 2023, like, there's still only two, you know, like, and I mean.

Maureen Holloway  15:32  
Well, there are two really big ones whom you've just named, but there are a number on this sort of middling level of success right now, whatever that means.

Wendy Mesley  15:42  
The last series that we've just got, like tiny previews of of the season. And the last one, there is a young, brown, queer person, I don't know what pronoun he wants to use she wants to use. But it's almost like you're jealous watching it, because you didn't have those opportunities. And I just, I find that really interesting. So are things getting better? I mean, that's what you're talking about and better, but not really very different.

Vivek Shraya  16:11  
I mean, I do think that for me when one of the things, you know, when I worked on the stage play for how to fail as a pop star, one of the things that came up from the director was like, well, if you were going to guess why you failed, or how you failed, what what would be the reason so I had like this homework that I had to create. So I actually created a list of 40 reasons of why I think I failed in the show, we hint at it, there's like post it notes in the last episode of things that Vivek has written that's on her wall.

Wendy Mesley  16:38  
Yeah, I saw that. And it was all about being a brown, queer boy, or?

Vivek Shraya  16:41  
Yeah, we're like, they don't have abs, I don't have leather pants, they don't like, the first thing that I wrote was, I think the first thing I said was, I was born in Edmonton. And then the second thing I wrote was, I was born in 1981. And I do think, I mean, it's so hard to know what my career would be like, but I do look at the younger generation. And I really try to limit envy around that, like, I really tried to turn my envy or jealousy and to support. But it is hard not to sometimes look at, you know, artists who are coming up 10 years later for me, or 20 years later for me and be like, whoa, like the things that you the world, you get to live in the way that you can access language, even talking about your queerness your identity, like this conversation we're having right now, like the ways that we've like already mentioned pronouns, and all this stuff, just like in passing, we're not even talking about that. This conversation could not have existed in 1998, you know, like, in the same way. And so it's hard sometimes not to be like, it's less about envy and jealousy of like younger artists, but more like man, like, and I even say this in episode eight, right? It's like, I wonder what it would be like, if I was starting my career now. Like, I'll never get to have that experience. And so it is something that haunts me, you know, like, and these are the things you can't control. Like, I can't go back in time. And like it is it is what it is. But I even remember in 2003 when I put out my first album, like, there was such a pressure to perform a certain kind of masculinity, you know, that was around the time that Justin Timberlake had just come out solo, and you still had to, like, carry yourself a certain way. And I was like, It's a dance music. It's pop music. Like, who cares? Like, I don't know what we're hiding here. But like, there was still like, I remember just pressure to perform a certain way. So anyways, I do think a lot about like, time and, and, and the things that I didn't get to have and one of them-

Wendy Mesley  18:29  
And wearing leather pants or not wearing leather pants. That was that was so insulting in a way. 

Vivek Shraya  18:35  
Sure. I mean, I'll come back to that in a second. And one thing I will say really quickly is one of the things I try to hold in my heart is like the artists that came before me, who didn't get to have the things I get to have, right? Like, it's easy for me to get bogged down by like look at all the things a young artist gets to have. But I get to have a lot of things that artists that are 10 years old or 20 years older didn't get to have either and so I tried to like find a balance there. The leather pants is like for me just to catch viewers or listeners up there's a moment where well should we talk about this? Or I don't know if we want to give away spoilers.

Maureen Holloway  19:04  
Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, do you?

Vivek Shraya  19:07  
Was this a question that you were gonna ask or?

Maureen Holloway  19:12  
No, yeah, you know, we can go there or not. I don't I think I don't think you're gonna give too much away if you're going where I think you're going.

Wendy Mesley  19:19  
Yeah, I think it's just the idea that if you're like if if you're performing and you're you're leaning in a certain direction, you're supposed to wear leather pants like, it just seems so ridiculous and you fought back against that.

Maureen Holloway  19:32  
The performative aspect of masculinity as opposed to what I mean we always say that femininity is performative, but I don't think we've really given enough time to think about how I mean Barbie movie changed my entire viewpoint about performative masculinity.

Vivek Shraya  19:47  
No know I mean, I think what we're trying to get to in some of those early episodes, like even when Matt Geez is like, we should put some sitars on here, like, like, can you name five, brown pop singers that you know that aren't Freddie Mercury, you know, like, it's it's a pretty small genre like we exist. But in terms of notoriety, it's hard. And one of the things I ran into a lot when I was starting my career is that and even to this day is that people don't know where to peg you. If you're not white, like if you're not white, or maybe if you're not black. And maybe now if you're not Indigenous, maybe I don't know, but generally, if you're not white, we don't know what to do with you. And so it's like, can you lean more into being gay for us can you just be a little bit more gay?

Wendy Mesley  20:32  
Can you wear some leather pants, but you know, the way that gay people wear leather pants. 

Vivek Shraya  20:37  
Or can you be a little bit more brown like we just need a lane, whatever you're doing here, seeing a Lana's Morissette with your dad's suit on like we like, we don't know what's happening. We don't know how to track this and I do think that there's a way that if you're marginalized and you're trying to be an artist, you are asked to perform for the gaze, whether that's the female gaze, I mean, sorry, whether that's for the male gaze or the straight days or the cis gaze like you're always being forced or asked or requested or pushed into performing for the gaze of the majority. And I think that's part of what what my character is dealing with at the beginning is like, these people who are think well intentioned and see that my my character has talent, but the only way they know how to move him forward is by being like perform more for the gays, you know, like, and not gays, as in g-a-y-s, but like the gays. They were like performed more for the gays, I think my career would have been a lot better. That's not what they were asking.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  21:37  
The Women Of Ill Repute.

Maureen Holloway  21:40  
You've got long blonde hair. You're very sexy. You are and you aspire to be like Madonna. I loved Madonna. I don't like her anymore. For a not the obvious reasons. Just find her very grating and harsh I'm not talking about her appearance. But I loved her. I adored her. And you'd mentioned Britney and I mean, this is some these are people that you've kind of incorporated into your appearance. Now if unless I'm completely wrong, that's what I'm getting. Is this the year this beautiful blonde woman with long curly hair and high heels and jewelry and and and so has that been a true vision for you the whole way or have you evolved as we all have?

Vivek Shraya  22:25  
You know, I've had complicated it's been interesting, like the blonde hair, I think was like tricky when I first started because, like, I started dyeing my hair blonde in my early 20s. And I do think that there was something about like wanting to assimilate, I found that especially like at the gay bar in Edmonton, like if I had blond hair, and if I was wearing my blue contacts, like people noticed me, they looked at me in a different way. You know, gay culture, in a lot of ways is still actually racist. We don't talk about this enough, because you assume that if you're a marginalized community, you don't marginalize others. But some of the places I've experienced the most racism has been in the gay community. And so I do think in my early years, like in my 20s, I think there was part of what drew me to blonde hair was a certain kind of assimilation. But in my 40s, I think in my 30s, like, I've been blonde now, I think for five years, it really isn't about being white, like part of it for me is like, well, there's a lot of ways to be brown in the world. You know, like, who says that white people get to like, the like ownership on blonde hair, right? Like, who says that this has to be just for for white people. And part of its like, it just feels like who I am like, you know, if my hairstylist is like, do you ever think you're gonna go dark? And I'm like, I don't think so and he's like, yeah, you're blonde, aren't you? And I'm like, Yes, I'm here. To add this to my bio and sort of like queer trans POC just be like, blonde. Just blonde, just blonde. So yeah, I mean, it's a good question.

Wendy Mesley  23:51  
Maureen is, is Madonna, a blonde? Like what is she now? Like, I am not a fan. Let's not talk about her appearance, but but I do find and and- 

Maureen Holloway  24:01  
That's not what it that's not what I don't that's not what I meant, I know a lot of people have given her a hard time and she has every right to do whatever she wants with the way she looks. I just, I find her cold. That's what it is. I find her cold and that's not the vibe I get off her.

Vivek Shraya  24:14  
I mean, I think the real this is what I think the problem is, is we have no more mystery. Like we're just never exposed to people in the same way that we were now like to see an artist. I remember I used to have to like stay up or like put the timer on my VHS to see them perform on David Letterman. And maybe they'd get an interview. And then maybe I read a magazine where they're on the cover of Rolling Stone. But that was the only way we could access artists. And it was kind of beautiful. Because there was this mystery. There was this enigma. I mean, it also meant a lot of male artists get to like do a lot of shitty things. Oh, sorry, bad things that went unchecked. But I think the problem with the world that we live in now is that people are overexposed. So we see artists in ways that we've never seen before. And I'm like, you know, it's to use Madonna as examples like, is she that way now or she always been, but we just never saw it as much, right? Like, I think like, there's so much pressure to be on social media and content content content. What are you doing now? What are you doing now? And it's like, again, I missed the days of not knowing, I don't want to know what my artists thinks. I don't want to know what they're cooking for breakfast. Like, I just want to line up outside of HMV, buy the album and like, get into it and make it my own. I want to have my own relationship. 

Maureen Holloway  25:27  
That's so interesting, because it seems to be a dichotomy, because you connect with your fans, and they are your for your audience, your followers, your readers, your students, as you teach creative writing in Calgary, do you not? I do. So I mean, it's all about connection. And yet, it's interesting that you should say that as a fan, you actually don't want to connect beyond the, the the music or beyond the artistry.

Vivek Shraya  25:54  
I feel a lot of pressure to if I'm going to be honest, like if I could be the kind of artists that those artists were in the 90s. Like, I do think that there was something about it that's very privileged, right? Like, I'm just going to show up, when I show up and do my thing. Like, I just don't think young artists or even artists that are not young, get to have that freedom. Like I think that there is a pressure at all time for any artist in 2023. And this is where I actually do feel really sympathetic to younger artists. Because when I was a teenager, like I didn't have everything captured on the internet, and I didn't feel pressure to capture everything on the internet. And there's so much pressure at all times to be doing that. And if I could have my way and if I wasn't promoting a TV, and I even tried to find a balance like for me when I go into Instagram like I try not to have it on my phone. I tried to like I treat it like Hunger Games, I go in, I post something I try to like a couple other people's thing because I believe in a reciprocal environment. And then I get out of there same with Twitter, like see a couple things get out like I tried to minimize how much I do. I still haven't done tick tock even though people are like, You need to be on tick tock, I'm like, do I need to be on tick tock? So it sounds like a contradiction. But it's like, again, that's that's what I miss and that's the artist I wish I could be. But unfortunately, like, if you don't have big ad dollars, one of the best ways to get people to hear about you and connect about you is social media. And that's why we all sold our souls to it. Right? 

Maureen Holloway  27:16  
Testify this is we know exactly what you're talking about. Right? I don't we don't want to be on TikTok. 

Wendy Mesley  27:21  
Yeah, we're trying to build up our social media presence at the moment. And it's, it's a challenge, which you you talk about, but I'm curious of who you think your audience is, like, I read that you you said that there's two audiences, there's like, I'm kind of tired, I think you said of feeling like I have to teach people about what it's like to be a brown person or what is like to be a trans person or, or whatever. So but I do think that people need to learn. So are you talking to those people, which are probably a larger group? Or are you talking to a smaller group of people who are who see the world the way they that you see the world?

Vivek Shraya  28:00  
I mean, again, as an artist, my hope is that my art reaches many people. I think one of the things I put out a book, I mean that you referenced, I'm afraid of men in 2018. And it confirmed my perspective, because one of the things I've heard my whole life is that as a trans artist, or queer artist around artists that like my work is niche, right? That the only people who can understand me or relate to me or want me are a certain small demographic, which I've always pushed against, because I'm like, Well, if I have no problem, rocking up to Sheryl Crow in my bedroom as a white kid, like, I don't get why white people can't or straight people can't like read my work or listen to my music and not make a connection, I'm afraid of men was a national bestseller for like, you know, I think like two or three months in Canada, it was like the Indigo staff pick. And it was really affirming because I'm like, Oh, actually, if there's a lot of infrastructure, if there's a lot of marketing, if it's pushed by a giant publisher, like Penguin Random House, then actually so called niche work has the opportunity to reach a lot more people. And part of what I haven't had is that infrastructure, right? So I'm realizing here that I'm not answering your question. But in terms of like demographics, I really hope that my work reaches a lot of people I really want to push against the idea that it limited at the same time. I think, internally the choices that I'm making are different. So in my 30s, especially I found I did feel like I needed to like bring people on my side by doing some educational work through my work. And so in some ways, my work was for the gaze and part of it's also being smart about who your audiences in Canada, right like the reality is like who are booked buyers in Canada who are music listeners, or dominant music listeners, I should say and dominant book buyers, but the older I get, the more I'm trying to find ways to speak to my own community and to do things my own way and to do less explaining so to talk about Popstar one of the things I'm so proud of is that it's an extremely diverse show. It is a queer story. It is a brown story. It's a transport but None of those things are mentioned that at no point, my character has an identity crisis. They never come out. They're never like, I don't know who I am Mom, will you accept me? Will somebody accept me? I'm in so much trauma about this. I'm so conflicted. I don't know who I am. Like, none of that is there. And it's wonderful. It's like, to me, that's what I mean, when I say that. I'm trying to not make work for the gays. Because if I was making that show, 10 years ago, I would have been like, okay, well, we should explain that the character right now is identifying this way. You know, there's like a little joke, I think, in episode like, eight where my character is like, and I'm a lady now, you know, moving forward, but it's meant as a joke. It's not meant to be like, and it's

Wendy Mesley  30:37  
And it's life. It's just life. That's, that's what I really appreciate it. 

Vivek Shraya  30:41  
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's exactly exactly.

Wendy Mesley  30:45  
Is that people don't feel they have to talk about how I like to. I like to have sex with men, or I like to have sex with, like, who cares? 

Vivek Shraya  30:52  
Exactly, exactly. 

Wendy Mesley  30:53  
Who cares? Well, I mean, we all have different interests, but yeah.

Vivek Shraya  30:58  
But that's what people want from us, right? Like, unfortunately, that is what we've been told is like, when you're trans, we want to hear about your transition, we want to hear about how your parents didn't accept you, we want to hear about your body. If you're queer, we want to know how like, you know, like, that's the thing and so it's like, for me, what's great about pop stars is like none of those things. That's not what the showboat is just actually kind of a classic music biopic turned upside down. It's just about as like a small town boy who has big dreams, it doesn't work out,

Maureen Holloway  31:26  
Played by Barbra Streisand. Not right now. Shes got a big bio coming out. I want to just point out something funny that we were talking about this weekend that the word lady is now something you call someone when you're when you're annoyed. Lady.

Vivek Shraya  31:40  
I know I didn't know that this was a pejorative so I'm like I'm I'm a new technically a new lady so I'm learning.

Maureen Holloway  31:47  
Yeah, well, you don't want anyone to call you lady because whatever's coming isn't gonna be good.

Vivek Shraya  31:51  
All I want is someone to call me lady like I got somebody, Miss called me miss at Cineplex. And I was like, they called you miss. And I was like, finally, I'm a young girl. Like, I didn't, I didn't get that experience.

Maureen Holloway  32:04  
I don't mind this. I like this. But I do not. I mean, I do like this.

Vivek Shraya  32:11  
I'll agree on that. 

Maureen Holloway  32:13  
Yeah, I know what that is other thing too. Your mother played a big part in your art and so on and your upbringing, and she's played as a character in the latest show. How is your relationship with her? She was a super glamorous, beautiful woman. 

Vivek Shraya  32:28  
Yeah, I mean, I really wanted the mom and the show to like, represent the kind of like fashionable mom I had. I think sometimes when I've seen brown moms on television, they tend to be more austere, you know, wearing a sari like, you know, Namaste, and my mum like shoplet Reitmans and like, yeah, like was like kind of, like, at least fashionably cool. I mean, and the moms also very supportive on the show. And I mean, I leaned hard in that direction. I think in reality, my mom's a bit like my mom, there is a part of her that really wanted me to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer. That's the reality, but we've seen that story so many times.

Maureen Holloway  33:01  
The heart wants what the heart wants. 

Vivek Shraya  33:02  
Yeah, exactly. But we've seen that story so many times. And I'm like, let's actually see the side of my mom, who's also somebody who like, even though she wanted those things simultaneously, she like loved my singing and has always to this day been like, you've got a golden voice. Never forget that. You know, like, that's the thing that she tells me the most. So I'm like, let's show that, that art. So my mom in some ways on the show is also a composite.

Wendy Mesley  33:26  
So now, like like, what do you do now? Like, you wrote the soundtrack? So you wrote a bunch of songs for for this series, but you're still kind of you'd like you sang for us? Have you have you given have you given up the idea of being a pop star?

Maureen Holloway  33:40  
You'll always be a musician. It's like being a priest. You can't not be one.

Vivek Shraya  33:44  
That's exactly it. Like I think music will always be part of my life and pop star. I think I realized when I turned 30 Like Like you said, like pop stardom definitely has a clock on it. It's kind of like dance. It's not like, you know, with books, there's that mean, that circulate that's like, don't worry, Toni Morrison didn't write her first book until she was 40. But pop music isn't like that. Like, it's very age centric. And so, but despite knowing that I had failed as being a pop star, even though I didn't name it that way, I've tried to, like find different ways to like, continue to have music in my life. It really is the greatest love of my life. And yeah, and I think if I'm gonna be really honest, there's a part of me that like, will always think that I will be the exception. Like, who knows maybe this show will be the thing that gets me a Grammy, like, you know, like, it's like, I you can still make a showboat failure and still, like be delusional. It's about where you start. Exactly. It's about where you start.

Wendy Mesley  34:41  
We have love talking to you. Vivek so I'm, I'm I It may be too old for me and Mo to make it as popstars we may be past the prime. 

Vivek Shraya  34:49  
We all are I think unforutnately.  

Wendy Mesley  34:51  
 I hope it's not over for you, but yeah.

Vivek Shraya  34:53  
That's nice.

Maureen Holloway  34:55  
But in the meantime, How To Fail As A Pop star is playing on see CBC Gem and probably because podcasts live forever by the time you're listening to this man who knows third season. third season.

Wendy Mesley  35:09  
Do we have a second?

Maureen Holloway  35:11  
In real time. It was, it was just lovely to meet you and a pleasure talking to you.

Vivek Shraya  35:17  
Thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it

Wendy Mesley  35:20  
All the best to you yeah. And thank you for doing this. 

Vivek Shraya  35:23  
Oh, my gosh, my pleasure.

Maureen Holloway  35:26  
Okay, well, I, for one managed to get through that, I think without saying something stupid, maybe it did. Who knows?

Wendy Mesley  35:33  
Well, we'll never know, I think I said something at the beginning about failure not being the most popular topic, but that's no good. 

Maureen Holloway  35:42  
What I was gonna say though, the thing is, we it's great that we can now have conversations about music and fame, where it doesn't come down to as Vivek sad what it was like for her to transition or that are using pronouns. And all that is now part of the general discourse. We don't really have to go into it. But nonetheless, it's still there.

Wendy Mesley  36:02  
I remember 20 years ago, Katie Couric, who's a journalist, she's of our vintage, maybe even a little bit older, and she heard an interview with somebody about being gay. Oh, my God, oh, my God so what does it tell me exactly what has happened with your surgeries? And, and, and I think it was a real turning point for people to say, no, who cares? Like, who cares about that stuff? Like maybe your best friend wants to tell you about some horrible thing that they went through at a doctor's office. But that's not what it's about. That's it's about we're all people. And we all just want to express ourselves. And yeah, so things have changed a lot.

Maureen Holloway  36:37  
Well, they have changed, but they haven't changed entirely. I did want to bring up Bilal Baig, who is the creator and star of sort of, and in fact, Vivek was a consultant, a musical consultant on the show.

Wendy Mesley  36:49  
Another CBC show, which is, it's great actually. Yeah, yeah.

Maureen Holloway  36:54  
But Bilal, you know, very much his talk, doesn't talk, but acts and tells the story of of a person who doesn't fit into any category, who is a brown person who dresses as a woman. And I thought that was interesting that that we didn't go there as a matter of fact, because it's, I think the whole point is that this should not be the center of the conversation. It's an interesting aspect of it, but not the only topic. 

Wendy Mesley  37:21  
Yeah, and the Vivek's thing is that, you know, if 20 years ago, if I'd been starting out, would it have been different? And I think, you know, we talked a lot about Madonna. Madonna, you know, people made fun of her because she was a woman who was trying to be a rock star, and I think that she's super or was super talented, but she wasn't treated that way. And the Vivek's argument is like, Okay, well, things are now changing for other people, too and yeah, but not quickly for everybody. 

Maureen Holloway  37:49  
They are and they aren't, you know, for us we're all like we're all it's like preaching to the choir. We're all allies. We're all on board. We're all you know, accepting why wouldn't we be but you know, I'm, I can assure you were not the majority. Not yet. Anyway, on that cheery note.

Wendy Mesley  38:05  
Will you say something stupid? Will you say something offensive?

Maureen Holloway  38:08  
Oh, I'm sure I'm sure I'm probably 10 out of 10 just for this episode. On to the next.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  38:14  
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.