Tracy Dawson: The Trouble with Tracy

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway. 

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
Wendy, today is a good day to discuss the F word.

Wendy Mesley  0:11  
The F word with which F word? 

Maureen Holloway  0:14  
Well, it could be the F bomb, which we do drop from time to time on the podcast, but I'm talking about an F word that is far more contentious and misunderstood. 

Wendy Mesley  0:22  
Yeah, I know. It's gotta be friendship, right? No, no. Fingering?

Maureen Holloway  0:34  
You went straight from friendship to fingering all right. No, no, it's not.

Wendy Mesley  0:37  
Well, yeah, I got a good one now is feminism right? Is feminism. Yeah.

Maureen Holloway  0:42  
Yes. It's feminism, it is so divisive and yet who would not say that they believe in equal rights is I mean, is there anybody in in the modern world, the enlightened world who would not support human choice and sexual freedom? Who would not want to end gender stratification and violence?

Wendy Mesley  1:00  
Oh, well, I mean, that's all sounded very enlightened and I agree with you, but there are a lot of people who are still opposed to that. 

Maureen Holloway  1:07  
Yeah, I know. Yeah. I know. 

Wendy Mesley  1:08  
And some of them are even women. Yes. Women who won't say that they are feminists. 

Maureen Holloway  1:14  
Young women who will say no, I it drives me nuts. I'm not a feminist. If you say you're a feminist boys aren't going to ask you to dance. 

Wendy Mesley  1:20  
Well, I don't know about that. But a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. Which brings us to our guest this week, Tracy Dawson. She is an actor, a writer, a director, a comedian.

Maureen Holloway  1:31  
Now you may know her is Meghan Fitzpatrick, from the show Call Me me Fitz way back with Jason Priestley. But I met I met Tracy way, way back when she was just a baby comedian. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, and she'll correct me if I if I am. I think she was the youngest person ever to join Second City.

Wendy Mesley  1:49  
Wow. Kind of amazing and kind of neat that you have this history that goes way back. But she she's more of a writer now apparently, and she's written a book called Let me be frank, a book about women who dress like men to do shit with stars to do shit they weren't supposed to do.

Maureen Holloway  2:13  
What's it about? With no further ado, let us welcome Tracy Dawson. Tracy. Look at you all grown up. 

Tracy Dawson  2:23  
I'm Grown. I'm a real boy. No, that's not right.

Maureen Holloway  2:30  
You are you've decamped. You're in Los Angeles, aren't you?

Tracy Dawson  2:33  
I've been in LA for like 17 years, and I can't believe it. I can't. I actually am like, what is time? Which a lot of us feel you know, after this? Well, with this pandemic, you don't I mean, like time has become like a completely insane notion. But yeah, I have I have decamped. It's hard. It's it's hard to keep up this 72 and sunny lifestyle. It really is.

Maureen Holloway  2:56  
Well, especially in the darkest days of winter up here, but I didn't realize you've been gone that long. 

Wendy Mesley  3:01  
What did you do with Maureen? What what were the two of you doing?

Tracy Dawson  3:04  
Oh my gosh, listen, memories. Funny, right? Like how you can literally forget about something for eons. And then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, my God, it was called The Dish Show.

Maureen Holloway  3:15  
It was called  The Dish Show. And your guest but then you became a I think you were a writer after that, or was it the other way around?

Tracy Dawson  3:23  
I was a guest. I was I was a young comedian. I was like, I was like, so happy to be invited on that show. You know what I mean? Like, because the people that you had as guests, the women that you had, as guests on that show were like amazing Jane Arden, Linda Cash, you know, and you co hosted with Bridget Gall and I came on as a guest. I mean, just highlight of my life at that point and then- 

Maureen Holloway  3:45  
What do you mean at that point?

She was so young. It was the highlight of my life.

Tracy Dawson  3:52  
Yeah, now that now that experience is shit. No. I was getting on with Mercer Kiko who's like the executive producer, and I wouldn't put it past me my memories, sort of like, I think that might have gone, hey, can I stay on? Like I think they just sort of invited-

Maureen Holloway  4:09  
I think you I think you did that. Yeah.

Tracy Dawson  4:11  
I invited myself as sort of like, a script assistant. You know what I mean? Like I was not paid. It was definitely like an intern. I didn't know that. I'm fairly certain I was volunteering my I mean, you know what, again, memory Whoo. So I believe I sort of stayed on an intern capacity but it was like because of that because of sticking around I met incredible people it was worth it was worth it. Because Linda Cash was on. I don't know if recall. Linda Cash came on and I she was looking she was casting a new TV show that she was doing with Red Green, what's his name? Steve Smith? 

Maureen Holloway  4:47  
Yes.

Tracy Dawson  4:48  
Yeah. She was doing a new show with Steve Smith and they needed to find a teenager and I happened to be someone who was in my early 20s but looked really young. And because of meeting her on  The Dish Show I think that was my first like, big recurring like TV show part. 

Maureen Holloway  5:02  
God, I wish I could tell you what launched my career. No, I'm kidding. But it was true is and that's kind of why we do this show Wendy and I, Women Of Ill Repute is the people that we meet on it. God knows we're not making any money. I think we're interning on our own show. But we meet the most phenomenal people. And at the end of the day, that's, that makes it almost worth it.

Tracy Dawson  5:26  
You have such great conversations on here and I was listening to the Sex With Sue episode last night because I know Jane Johansen from years back at the Shaw festival, we we both worked at the Shaw Festival, and I am dying to see this movie Sex With Sue, but you can't get it up here in the States or down up here.

Maureen Holloway  5:43  
Wherever you are Los Angeles.

Tracy Dawson  5:45  
I can't stream it. So it's a bummer. 

Maureen Holloway  5:47  
You should be able to find it online. I think it was airing on crave back it but I couldn't find anything.

Tracy Dawson  5:54  
But you can't access those Canadian platforms when you're in the States.

Wendy Mesley  5:58  
So come home. I mean, that's all there's so much better here. So now you're in LA, you're your writer and you've written this book, which actually was given to me when we started this podcast, which is kind of cool.

Tracy Dawson  6:11  
Yeah, who gave it to you? How can I thank them. 

Wendy Mesley  6:15  
They're both lawyers and they both knew that we were doing this that Moe and I were doing this podcast and they thought this is so cool and it's for sale. I live in Prince Edward County, which is the County, except apparently there's 25 of them. So you know, to help with that. 

Maureen Holloway  6:27  
But they call it the county.

Wendy Mesley  6:29  
But you've written a book. Now this book that I got called let me be frank, and it's about it's got shipped with two stars in it and it's about women who dressed up so it's everything from people who wrote books, published books, they escaped slavery, they served in the army, they practice medicine- 

Maureen Holloway  6:46  
Burnt at the stake. A couple of those. 

Wendy Mesley  6:48  
Yeah. And then there's something called a witch prikard, there's even some bad people, but but it all started with you in LA.

Maureen Holloway  6:56  
Being angry. You were that comes, it comes from anger, does it not?

Wendy Mesley  6:59  
Tell us that story?

Tracy Dawson  7:01  
It comes from vengeance. Yeah, no. Well, first of all, yes, I will say that the book is called Women that dress like men to do shit they weren't supposed to do. But of course, I'm stretching the premise there in terms of dressing. There's people who literally took on disguises to like serve in the army to compete in sports or whatever and then of course, there's the authors or people that took on a male pseudonym. You know, obviously, this is all about access to opportunity. This isn't a book about gender identity or anything, not that there aren't some probably queer non binary people historically that that would be considered. But back in the day that they were doing this, there were no, there was a terminology for gender fluidity. But for the most part, the people in my book are defiant women who are not taking no for an answer and what happened to me in about 2013, I was really starting out as a TV writer, here in LA, and an executive, I was meeting with an executive and, and she said, so do you like any of our do you like any of our pilots? Could you see yourself writing on any of these new shows? And I said, Yes. And I listed off these shows and then she said, oh, well, none of those shows you just named have any female needs. 

Maureen Holloway  8:09  
Female needs. 

Tracy Dawson  8:11  
Yeah, that I mean, you could interpret that a lot of ways, but I think I knew right away what she meant and it was like, basically, especially in a comedy writing room in 2013, they probably thought female needs meant they had their one in two women. It's all too common. I think it's probably changed a bit in the last 10 years, but she said it right to my face. And I think they turned purple. I was so ashamed. I felt like such like, I felt like such an idiot, because I never would have considered myself a female writer, a specialty item, you know what I mean? Like someone that was added for color and so that kind of stuck in my craw and in my head. And then over time, I would kept on hearing these stories here and they're like, I read this article and Jezebel, but this woman who, in 2015, she sent out the first 10 pages of her novel and to all these agents and queries, you know what I mean? And she got such a dismal response, she decided to send it out again, with a male name and not her own name. And she got like this way better response. And I was like, what's happening? Like, is it the 18th century? So I started to research and I found way more examples than I ever thought I would and I initially this isn't in the book, but it was initially a TV pitch. You know, I was with a gigantic juggernaut agency at the time, and I have this idea and it was like, it's a great hook. You know what I mean? But it's also an expensive show. When you do an anthology with all these different time periods. You have to get an Ava DuVernay or Shonda Rhimes on board in order to earn Oprah to like sell a show like that. And so people loved the idea. They were like, oh, what a great hook, but we didn't sell the show. I had done all this research. I met all these women. They were like my sisters, you know what I mean? And I was like, I can't leave them behind. I wonder if this is a book. I thought I have never had In my life before this, and I said, Well, who? You know, cares? I'll just start writing. Do you know what I mean like it felt like a lark at the time. And then when I shared the pages, I was like, I don't know. It's just a book. And people were like, This is a book. And I was like, Oh, it's a book. So from the moment that I had the thought, I wonder if this is a book to selling it to Harper Collins was only four months, which is insane. 

Wendy Mesley  10:23  
But you're a female writer. I mean, like, really? I mean, can you really write?

Maureen Holloway  10:27  
Yes you can write you can write well. 

Wendy Mesley  10:29  
Well  it's such a joke. I mean, why why have these stories not been told about and why? I'm very glad to hear you say that there's not a quota anymore. Because I think that well, like it goes back to when you were on the dish with with with Moe, like, Moe was nominated for an award and was told the women aren't that funny.

Maureen Holloway  10:48  
Oh, you know what? I'm going, I am going to just follow up on that. So we had a great show, we were one of the first shows to launch the comedy network in Canada. It was ours and Mike bullards. Show and we were the two and Bridgette and Mike and I did all the promotion for everything and launched big hoopla and so on show did really well, by Canadian standards for cable. Remember, cable back when cable was the only alternative before streaming? We did really well. I can't give you numbers because I can't remember. But they were very good and they didn't and we did 26 episodes out of the gate. And they didn't renew us and Bridget and I the talent went to see those ad and Susan, I think we're running. I'm not gonna give the last names and they said, well, we've decided to actually in this is not a word of a lie, that the target audience for comedy is young man. In other words, I can tell you right now 1997 we were told women are not that funny.

Wendy Mesley  11:47  
So you've written this book? 

Maureen Holloway  11:49  
No, I want to go on. I'm still angry. 

Wendy Mesley  11:52  
And it's funny. No, but you're angry. And you wrote a book and now but I'm wondering, is it changing? Like, do you still like I was amazed to read in your book that JK Rowling we can talk about her for other reasons. But for this reason, JK, yeah, she used, hey, because one guy is going to want to buy a book that's written by Joanne Rowling. 

Tracy Dawson  12:13  
That came from the publisher. The story goes, right like I wasn't there, none of us were there. The story goes at the publisher said, you know, we don't think that young boys again, this this this notion that only boys buy books and only boys watch comedy, which is not the data does not support this guys. But to be told, we don't think that little boys will be comfortable buying a book about wizards with, with some with the name Joanne on the cover. And what's what gets me though is years later, she's a billionaire. She's the most successful author that's walked the planet or whatever and she wanted to write follow up books that were adult driven and not geared towards younger audiences. And she wanted to write about crime and espionage or something. And she was like, I don't want to use my name. I want to use something that's as far away from JK Rowling as possible so that I just, it's just the writing. Okay, but the name she chose wasn't Doris, or Leticia. The name she chose was Roberts, she chose a second name and she chose Robert Galbraith or however you say it, and that was like, I mean, I could say fu to JK Rowling for a many reasons. But it just gets me because I'm like, I wanted to get as far away from JK with a name as possible. I said, you know, it's further than Robert, is, Doris, because part of me is like, you know, you know that it's that there's, like, you're not acknowledging it, whatever.

Maureen Holloway  13:38  
You're playing with, you're playing along basically, you're acknowledging, yeah, you're complicit. Well, there were a lot of what like George Eliot, and-

Tracy Dawson  13:47  
All the George's. 

Maureen Holloway  13:48  
And George Stan and George from- other George's are really not George's. That was women did get published. That's not true. The Bronte's did, some women did. 

Tracy Dawson  13:58  
My most well read friends did not know this when I told them as I was researching the book that Jane Austen never published using her real name during her while she was alive and none of the Bronte's use their real names while they were alive to publish. So Jane Austen was always anonymous. Her first book was by a lady like that's, which is pretty remarkable for the time because a lot of people were writing just anonymous. And she's like, Well, I'm not going to take a man's name and I'm not going to take anonymous, I'm going to own that I'm a woman, but I'm just not going to use my name, which was not uncommon in certain circles because of the times, right. It was very immodest. It was like a modesty and women was just like, oh my god, we're gonna die. A woman talked about herself, you know? But the Bronte's chose male names, every book that the three sisters published, they used a male name and it wasn't until after their death that their that their true identity was known, which is just crazy because like I said, Nobody I know who's read a they have read a lot of books and they were like, what? Because I think they people Just forget it.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  15:04  
The Women Of Ill Repute.  

Wendy Mesley  15:07  
I was surprised by a couple of things. There was that and there was also the bit about how women couldn't run marathons because and this is a 1960, whatever, because three might fall out. I mean, like, really, really?

Tracy Dawson  15:23  
This the stories that have been told, obviously, for time immemorial to try to, you know, keep women in line. I mean, what's the difference between you can't run a marathon because your uterus is gonna fall out and Roe v Wade falling? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, the control is still there. So obviously, as you mentioned earlier, like, there's anger in this book, but I do it with humor, because I have to, we have to laugh right? We have to laugh at this insanity because some of it is just so like, the injustice is so mind boggling, but that's why I wrote the book with my because I'm a comedy writer first.

Wendy Mesley  15:57  
But you're not funny. As a woman. You're, you're, you're not funny. It's still sensitive. Oh my god. 

Tracy Dawson  16:05  
What's so funny is it's like saying, It's like saying, I have two heads. Like it's so nonsensical to me this idea because my favorite comedians, the best of the best, in my opinion, are women Maria Bamford, Beth Stelling. I mean, these are the best working comedians, and it's just like, I don't like them because they're women. I like them because they're, they're dope, you know what I mean? 

Like, they're funny.

Wendy Mesley  16:30  
The other big surprise to me because there was a bunch that created debates, I suppose about, you know, women in history and now they're covered and not covered, was learning about pants like the Joan of Arc. Apparently, one of her big crimes was dressing as a guy and, and that even until the 60s in Chicago, if you were to wear a pair of pants with a zipper down the front, instead of down the back, that that was against the law, right? 

Maureen Holloway  16:55  
Yeah, it did get me that part. Really having a zipper in the front was against - what do you in for?

Tracy Dawson  17:02  
Exactly and there were laws on the on the books longer than we care to, to enjoy that you know, we're like male trousers, like trousers with a zipper in the front. We're for men, trousers with a zipper in the back. We're for ladies and so, you know, they use these laws to sort of patrol and police, gay and lesbian clubs, you know, so they would go in and they would raid these clubs, and they would shine they're- 

Wendy Mesley  17:28  
Looking for zippers? 

Maureen Holloway  17:29  
Where's your zipper? 

Tracy Dawson  17:30  
Yeah and I was watching a documentary with all the holder lesbians saying, you know, we'd run to the back of a club to switch our pants around. 

Maureen Holloway  17:38  
Wow. 

Tracy Dawson  17:39  
Like this crazy the hoops that- 

Maureen Holloway  17:42  
It's actually insane. 

Tracy Dawson  17:43  
It's I know, it's like the hoops that we have to jump through in order to just just leave us alone. I mean, part of the some of the women in my book weren't trying to be pioneers. They were trying to just like live like, just leave me alone. Like, I want to play this sport. I mean, there's a chapter about Iranian women who dressed up as men so they could sneak into the stadium just to watch the sports. Some people in my book were pioneers. Some people are super famous like Joan of Arc, but a lot of people don't know that one of the things that sent her to the steak was dressing as a man right dressing and men's clothes.

Maureen Holloway  18:14  
What they thought she was a witch right? I mean, so that witchcraft is a whole other like very women have been called witches for since time immemorial. So tell this is probably a good time to explain which pricking.

Tracy Dawson  18:29  
I mean, this is a chapter as I was researching and writing it, I had to lie down because this dark man, the witch hunts is a goof, but it's almost like, but it is almost like, yeah, they so don't understand this. Like there's so baffled by our amazingness that they had to like, create this. 

Wendy Mesley  18:45  
Yeah, what is the witch pricker? So there was such a thing.

Tracy Dawson  18:49  
There were many ways, you know, discover that a woman was a witch, but one of them that I didn't know about was witch pricking. And so they would take this long needle rule, and like plunge it into a spot on the body. And the whole thing was, it's madness, by the way, like, none of this is sensible, obviously, but like if you don't feel pain, or if you don't believe when we stick this in, you're a witch right? So I mean, they also would throw women into water and say if they float that means they're a witch.

Maureen Holloway  19:21  
Yeah, so this is a no win situation.

Tracy Dawson  19:24  
No, yeah, this is the system is not great, guys. But so there was this woman Kristen Patil who I guess she probably was watching what was happening, right. And she's like, well, heck, first of all, they're making a good living. They're making money being these witch pickers and you got you got paid an extra bonus if for every witch you found it's just like, insanity. 

Wendy Mesley  19:47  
So you've wrote about bad, bad women as well as like women who dress up for evil purposes to be which breakers or whatever.

Tracy Dawson  19:54  
I mean, I like to think that, you know, yeah, it's pretty evil what she did, but also Uh, like, I also like to think of the self preservation aspects but had to have been present, right? Like, if I'm disguised as a witch picker, no one's gonna maybe accuse me of being a witch and also, I'd like to make some money.

Maureen Holloway  20:12  
Well, that applies to a lot of people throughout history and today who, you know, have to they switch sides for self preservation. 

Tracy Dawson  20:20  
I mean, look, look at the grift happening in the Republic. I mean, are there any Republicans that aren't Grifters? Okay, not that I want to go down the politics lane, but 

Wendy Mesley  20:29  
That's your next book. 

Tracy Dawson  20:30  
Yeah, that's my next book.

Maureen Holloway  20:32  
Nice Republicans. 

Tracy Dawson  20:33  
Yeah, right. 

Maureen Holloway  20:34  
Okay, Republicans did not see that. 

Tracy Dawson  20:38  
I did want to write about, you know, anti heroines, as well as like, you know, it's like this idea that all women are good. And, you know, it's like, that's, that's sort of feminism to right, the right the equal equality and like being an asshole.

Maureen Holloway  20:52  
Yeah. One of the conversations that we have, and this is sort of a little off topic from your book, but on topic for this discussion is, you know, this idea that we have the world would be a better place if women ran it and it comes up again and again. And I'm I'm of the camp that no women are is capable of, of corruption and cruelty and given an opportunity, I guess, because we just haven't been given the same opportunities. And I think it's naive to think that there's something intrinsically good about women that transcends the rest of humanity, but I want to talk about some of the women that you that that actually like I can't remember her name. They go to the pharaoh the pharaohette.

Wendy Mesley  21:36  
I'm not sure that's how you pronounce it. But sure. I mean-

Maureen Holloway  21:39  
Yeah, the one of the greatest Pharaohs in ancient Egypt was a woman and unapologetically a woman, right?

Tracy Dawson  21:44  
Hatshepsut. I mean, listen, not easy to say and, again, I couldn't believe I'd never heard of Hatshepsut. A lot of people I did talk to had heard of her. So it was I maybe had a blind spot. But I didn't know that one of the greatest, most successful, you know, Pharaohs of all time was a woman. And I don't, it's hard to say unapologetically. Because, I mean, it's Ancient Egypt, right. And we were there piecing together. Stuff to tell her story, right. As she got longer in her reign, she did start to adopt more masculine. Like the imagery and the sculptures and stuff that exists, like they started to portray her as more mask if you will, and like giving her pecs pec muscles instead of breasts, and then adorning her with a fake beard. And so it's almost like I, I really, as I was researching this, there's a lot of controversy about her because the early Egyptologists were very sexist Egyptologists in you know, in the 60s in the 70s, would just paint her as this vile usurper, right, who was just like, grasping for power. But what was more likely was that it was about a family line was about trying to keep keep the power within the family and she stepped up because the, the little King was like two years old. So it's just like, let's not let the toddler run the show. How about that, right? So it like totally makes sense, but it was unheard of and so as soon as she got longer in her reign, I think that they started to get insecure, which is why they started to lean into the more mask imagery and aspects. I mean, some say it's possible that when she like, you know, spoke to her, her people that she would have taken on these, these, like, imagine her wearing a fake beard?

Maureen Holloway  23:30  
Well, I mean, girls gotta do, right, this, we keep getting back to.

Tracy Dawson  23:36  
Yeah and she did a great job. You know, she did it, she did a really great job. And I one thing I love hearing from readers is when they say, you know, I read that chapter because obviously I can't get into everything, right. There's a lot of people in the book, but when they say like, I ran to the library to like, read everything about Hatshepsut, I'm just, it's just warms my heart.  

Maureen Holloway  23:54  
The great departure points is the thing you don't they're all vignettes really, there's not an opportunity to to get into too much depth, but you're right, it just it opens up a whole world of possibilities. 

Wendy Mesley  24:06  
The thing that really struck me and made me think and please tell me is this is total BS or nod with a like, today so we're just talking about somebody from 1000s of years ago, who didn't have her story told the way that you think it should be told, or a lot of people think it should be told. But then today, you in the book, you talk about how well you don't say resting bitchface but you do say hey baby, why don't you smile and then you talk about that you quote Virginia Woolf and you say that men see it as an insult when women aren't smiling or when women say oh, that sucks or that's I'm not happy because because that they're supposed to be a reflection of the man. But I I wonder whether it's it's also that they feel that they can reach out to us which is also kind of condescending, but it's like hey baby, why do you look so unhappy like smile? So is it is it all going back to the Pharaoette. Or the Pharoah? Yeah, but but like, is it, so you talk about the things today? Is it still there like that and the smile thing? I mean, is it? Is it a reflection of what has been happening throughout your book for hundreds and maybe 1000s of years? Or, or is it just a male female thing?

Tracy Dawson  25:23  
I mean, I personally think that the, the way the patriarchy has been set up is that we, okay, to put it plainly, like we're there to serve and serving is more than just bringing you a cup of coffee. It's also being pleasing, like, be pleasing smile, like, be be there for me do this for me.

Wendy Mesley  25:42  
But the devil's advocate, part of me is like, don't, maybe they just want us to be happy. Men, when they when they see a woman say, oh, we got resting. bitchface just smile, come on, smile, smile, smile. So it's so insulting, and yet, I mean, it still carries on. So maybe, maybe that should be-

Maureen Holloway  25:59  
Aw why the long face?  You'd be so much handsomer if you smiled.

Wendy Mesley  26:04  
Would we ever say to a man?

Tracy Dawson  26:06  
I mean, honestly, if they said it to men, as well as women, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they don't. So I was I was on one of my first TV jobs here in LA on the Sony lot. And I was like, you know, it was my first big comedy job and I was we were pitching ideas for the script, I was gonna write and I was walking from the parking lot to the, to our offices, and I was deep in thought, and I was just like, I want to do a good job. You don't I mean, I'm a professional. I'm on the Sony lot. I'm a fucking writer, okay. And there's this older man walking towards me and I'm, and I'm, and I probably look stressed out because I was, and he's told me to smile and I just remember thinking, if I was a dude, writer, and I was walking along with like, he just wouldn't see, you know what he would do? He would assume that guy's got important things on his mind. Wow, he's, he's dealing with some work stuff. Look at that guy. He's got a lot on his mind. He would never what like, I think I turned around. I mean, I don't remember what I said. But I might have swore I might have said, are you fucking kidding me? Like, whatever. But I've never forgotten that. Even though of course, I think all of us have one of those stories. But it was the timing of that, because I was deep in thought about something that was really important to me in my career in my future. 

Maureen Holloway  27:19  
I know. We all have a million stories like that. I want to ask, because I mean, I could ask you about every single person you wrote about because they're all fascinating most. 

Wendy Mesley  27:29  
Which ones did you like Maureen?

Maureen Holloway  27:39  
No, actually, the thing that's interesting is while there were some that Joan of Arc being one and and George Eliot being another, and but there were most of them you don't know about or didn't until you read the book, which is really interesting, which, again, bringing it back to this podcast, some of our best guests are people that you haven't heard of who have amazing stories. So you know, all in favor of that, but what I wanted to bring up in this day and age, which hopefully is more enlightened, despite the fact that we still have our feet in the past and so many ways. Is it the fluidity and gender now, I mean, 100 years ago, we couldn't wear pants or zippers on the front. Now, if we can wear whatever we damn well want. Nobody can actually say you're dressed like a man or a woman. So we've changed that way. I mean, and gender lines themselves are dissolving. And we, this has got to be helping the cause, right?

Tracy Dawson  28:26  
Well, I would say, you know, oh, we used to not be able to wear pants. And now we can sell that so much better. But the thing is, is that if a man you know walks down the street wearing a skirt, you know, if we're thinking in intersectional ways, which is where I'm not free, unless all of us are free, which is like I like that, like I stand with that statement. And so I love all fluidity. It's just it speaks to me. Like it really speaks to the truth. Like if I really get down to it, like not about what's political, not like just personally like in high school, like, I like to wear men's clothes because I thought it was sexy. I thought it was cool. Like, and like I left you know, Diane Keaton a lot. And you know, I do like to play around with gender stuff. And I think that everybody everybody should like I'm just like, it just feels like why can't everything just be fluid? What scares some people right? Because they probably were brought up in a very strict rigid like, you know, there's probably a lot of shame and and so we're still working through some of this stuff. But I really do think if some of us aren't free then none of us are free. So we have to keep standing together and keep working for that you know?

Wendy Mesley  29:34  
So what now what do you do other than the book on the report on the all the Republicans that you like?

Tracy Dawson  29:43  
Talking about doing that makes me like want to throw up a little like in a good way. In a good way?

Maureen Holloway  29:49  
Think of the research - 

Wendy Mesley  29:50  
But you're working on another book, I think or anyway what's now? 

Maureen Holloway  29:54  
Or a script or a show? Tell us what you're doing because you've you've done so many interesting things and obviously you still are.

Tracy Dawson  30:00  
Now that the strike is over the Writers Guild strike, it's still, you know, we're still waiting to hear if they're going to ratify this, the actors agreement, but the writers strike is, is over. So now we can start up with all of our projects that were put on hold for a while and one of those is, you know, a screen adaptation of Frank, which is funny, right, the full circle moment of like, you can't sell it as an anthology show. And then you write a book and you have this intellectual property now, so people want to talk about it. So there's that which is exciting, but of course, slow process slow going. And so I'm working on my my next book, which is a follow up. It's not about women who disguised themselves as men, but it's still like feminism, women's historical nonfiction, but with a funny, humorous voice. And, you know, I continue to work to unearth women's history that really shouldn't have been buried in the first place. Like it's sort of like, if I can talk and relay it all the way back to when I was on the dish show and I starting at Second City and doing stand up and characters in like the alternative comedy scene of Toronto. Like, I think I was always turning this stuff on its head, right? Like in terms of bringing, oh my gosh, I literally like I was like, I know what I'm saying and then my brain was like, no, you don't know what you're talking about.

Maureen Holloway  31:25  
Bla bla bla, I don't know what I'm saying.

Tracy Dawson  31:27  
I just like on the road, like, you know what you're on the road and then you're like, I'm on the road and then you're like, where's the road? Where's the road? Like, just trying to like, I was basically like, bringing feminism to everything. And like, I would come out just as like a sweet girl with a little bob haircut. And then I would say just like really insane, aggressive, naughty things, you know? And I know that that was all part of like, me being a feminist and just wanting to what's the word I'm looking for not circumvent.

Wendy Mesley  31:57  
Starts with an F. I have no idea.

Tracy Dawson  32:01  
Guys, guys, two syllables.

Wendy Mesley  32:05  
Anyway, kind of come full circle you're back with with Moe. So I think you should stop now. I think I think this is this is it.

Maureen Holloway  32:12  
I'm just so happy to see I just remember you talking about your little Bobby had short bangs. And yeah, you were and you were at the time. You were like little pleated skirts. And yeah, and you said the most outrageous things. And that was that was that was really good and refreshing. And now you've got short blonde hair and still say outrageous things so. 

Tracy Dawson  32:30  
I just had to had to with the gray hairs and everything. Whatever. We could talk about-

Maureen Holloway  32:35  
We know, we know. Look at us. We all know.

Tracy Dawson  32:38  
We all look fantastic. What?

Wendy Mesley  32:40  
It's Welcome to the Short Hair Club. So all the people that we interview, they all have to get a haircut. Right? 

Maureen Holloway  32:45  
No you don't. We're never gonna get Jason Momoa now.

Wendy Mesley  32:53  
Yeah, oh, it's been lovely to talk to you. I'm, I'm so happy. I read your whole book. I only read I kind of skimmed it until you agreed to come on the on the podcast. And then they read the whole thing and it's great. 

Maureen Holloway  33:04  
And then you read it. 

I know. I did not read the whole thing. Because when you took the one copy we had and I said, yeah, yeah, you've took it, but it's called. Let's Be Frank.

Wendy Mesley  33:16  
Let Me Be Frank.

Tracy Dawson  33:18  
Let Me Be Frank, A Book About Women Who Dress Like Men To Do Shit They Weren't Supposed To Do. 

Maureen Holloway  33:24  
Okay. Yeah. All right. 

Tracy Dawson  33:25  
I just like saying the whole thing. I think it goes well together.

Maureen Holloway  33:30  
It does flow off the tongue. Tracy Dawson. Good luck with everything that you're doing. It's been just an absolute joy talking to you and seeing you again after all this time. And I hope that our paths cross again. And hopefully not in 25 years.

Tracy Dawson  33:43  
Yeah, exactly. I've had a great time and I appreciate you having me on. And also it's great to see you know, it's like I wanted to keep talking to you like I've just like that's the idea.

Maureen Holloway  33:54  
It's you don't want to talk to me were like god, can I get off this thing?

Tracy Dawson  33:56  
Let leave them wanting more literally. 

Maureen Holloway  33:59  
Yes. Let's hope we have Thank you, Tracy.

Wendy Mesley  34:04  
Wow, I so need I can't believe it was 25 years ago.

Maureen Holloway  34:08  
I got pregnant with, I did the dish show with Bridget home and you know what I have not I've lost touch with Bridget, who was my co host. And I was her and we met so many phenomenal funny women. And we didn't get her night forgotten about how angry I was because we they actually did say to us management, that when the comedy network is now going to be aimed towards young men. And you're not funny because you're a woman like for Well, that was the implication. They actually said that they actually said that this was 1990- Ronin was born in 98 so 97 and that was that. But again just met some hilarious people. brilliant people writers. Yes Jan was one of our first guests Jan. Yeah, Jan is still doing that. So yeah, it was really good. And I'm glad to hear that Tracy is has found success in that and that she's working in LA. And so it was great to see she was very funny and very, like I said she was young, like, had a lot of hutzpah.

Wendy Mesley  35:08  
She's still got a lot of hutzpah. She's still mouthing off. She's still I mean, the book is very funny. I mean, it's very angry, but it's also very funny. And she's still talking. Well, one thing we didn't get into, which I think is fun, because she sort of mentioned at the top that these days like, we're actually like listening to people who are trans and non binary people and, and so some people dress like men because I wanted to dress like men are they? A lot of times her book has been called the reverse Tootsie. Because it's about it's about women dressing as men instead Yeah, you gotta be careful as she says, You've got to be careful because there are lots of people who dress however the hell they want to dress and that's all fine but yeah, good. Yeah. So anyway, it was it was fun to hear her talk about fluidity with uh, with and with humour.

Maureen Holloway  36:00  
Another f word. 

Wendy Mesley  36:01  
Oh F word.

Maureen Holloway  36:01  
Yeah, oh, yes. Yeah, that's where we started that's where we're ending.

Wendy Mesley  36:04  
What was the secret word that she was thinking of? The F word. 

Maureen Holloway  36:07  
I don't know. We'll have to go back and listen. 

Wendy Mesley  36:10  
Fuid. 

Maureen Holloway  36:11  
Probably. 

Wendy Mesley  36:12  
Fingering. 

Maureen Holloway  36:17  
See you later.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  36:20  
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.