Tassie Cameron: Law and Order Toronto

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women of ill repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley. And Maureen Holloway

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
Wendy. It doesn't matter how cool we think we are as Canadians or as Torontonians. Specifically, we always get a little bit giddy or very giddy when we get a slice of the American Pie. Wow.

Wendy Mesley  0:19  
Yeah, like maybe an NBA franchise, not for me. But for me that the Cheesecake Factory I can talk to

Maureen Holloway  0:26  
excellent examples. And they're so similar. It doesn't always work, though. Target was a fiasco. Tarjay Tarjay was a fiasco. I don't think the Real Housewives of Toronto did to well, either. Well, we

Wendy Mesley  0:38  
are kind of a unique market, which brings us to Law & Order. Dun

Maureen Holloway  0:43  
dun. I practice.

Wendy Mesley  0:48  
I was going to and then I was afraid I get it wrong. So I was I got it right. No, no, no, that sounds good. Yeah, so that one law and order Toronto criminal intent. It's launched in this country. There's a lot of excitement, a lot of anticipation about it. The original show was set in New York back in 1990, which, of course was yesterday, but it wasn't. Anyway, along with several franchises. It's become the longest running scripted primetime series in television history, I think

Maureen Holloway  1:18  
second only to the Simpsons, which is kind of odd, but there's a lot of pressure to make this work taking this legendary time honored show and making it work in a Canadian setting.

Wendy Mesley  1:29  
Yeah, so it's got Canadian writers, Director actors. Which brings us to this week's guest Tassie Cameron. She's a highly accomplished award winning writer and director. She's worked on such acclaimed Canadian TV series as Degrassi Flashpoint pretty hard cases. Ricky blue,

Maureen Holloway  1:48  
it's no surprise that Tassie was tapped to be the show runner for Law and Order Toronto with all this that entails.

Here to talk about the crushing responsibility thrust of Bonner is Tassie. Cameron, welcome. Tassie.

Tassie Cameron  2:05  
Right. It's so great to be here with you wonderful women.

Wendy Mesley  2:09  
Yeah, something crap. Yeah. And don't mess it up. Thank you. Yes, I

Tassie Cameron  2:14  
was getting nervous all over again. Just hearing the intro. I am not a director, by the way, just just I am a writer and a producer. But I've never directed

Wendy Mesley  2:22  
your showrunner. What does that what do you do? You wrote it. And then

Tassie Cameron  2:27  
the showrunner is the sort of holds the creative reins to some degree, it's usually the head writer, almost always the head writer on the show. But I am involved in casting in budgets in editing and all wardrobe error, the whole everything whole thing, whole thing. So it's just somebody who is trying to nurture the show forward on both creative like writing level, but also production.

Maureen Holloway  2:59  
So I can see why they wanted you. And this may sound a little odd. But it has to be daunting, not only because it's a hugely success, successful show, and all its franchises and historical at this point. But it's also very defined, and it has very specific parameters. And you knew that going in. So there's not a lot of opportunity to put an individual stamp on it.

Tassie Cameron  3:29  
Right competed for the job. First of all, there were a couple of writers that they were trying out. And so I at first, I sort of thought, well, this would be a great intellectual challenge, you know, I'll just, and I won't get the job. And, you know, I'll, I'll have learned something. So that that's how it started. So I didn't feel that crushing weight of responsibility yet, because I didn't have the job. So I wrote the you know, I figured out which pilot story I was going to tell and wrote it and I got the you know, the the IKEA instructions, we call them from the from the wolf team about how to write criminal intent and and I sort of move forward and in the writing of it. And I honestly, I thought it would be easier than it was it's very, very hard to write the show. It's all a story. It needs 10,000 times more clues than any other mystery I've tried to write before. And there is and you know, we weren't creating the characters. I was creating the characters from scratch. So there is some room in that to put your own stamp on it. I mean, the character the female character of Bateman, her mom's a journalist, my mom's a journalist, you know, we, we, we get to have kind of build the characters with things that are important to to ourselves, the writers and you you get to tackle cases and subject matters that interest you so there's a bit more room to play than I thought there would be I

Wendy Mesley  5:00  
want to talk about your mom. But we can save that we're still on online order. But did you like grow up with that? You obviously she's a journalist has written a lot about crime and, and, and whatever and I knew her. But did you grow up with law and order? Like does it didn't mean a lot to get this. I

Tassie Cameron  5:19  
think anybody of my age has grown up with law and order. I mean, I remember watching the original, which I thought was amazingly good. And I think I was watching that before I even knew I'd be working in television. So, you know, I was watching it as a as a viewer. And it's just, I mean, it's always been on, it's just, you know, it's what you watch when you got a cold, or it's what you watch when you're in a hotel in a faraway place, and you want a kind of mystery that will wrap up and be satisfying. And so, I mean, it it, it was, by the time I kind of got the job. I was in kind of shock and horror that I was going to have to take this on and, and I felt like so many Canadians were invested in this in a different way than anything I've worked on before. So yes, I mean, taking on an iconic franchise, like this is was very nerve racking.

Maureen Holloway  6:21  
So this is criminal intent. So I'm gonna get this wrong. So there was law and order, whether it was law and order, and I always call it SUV, which is not at all, isn't that what it is? It all takes? It all happens at a four wheel drive car. No, it's SVU Special Victims Unit and then there's criminal intent. Why did we get this one? Or why did you get the why is this the Toronto when the criminal intent one, the

Tassie Cameron  6:49  
choice of this particular franchise was made before I was involved? I think it was for a couple of reasons. I think partly because Law and Order Criminal Intent is not on the air currently. So you know, I think that they were interested the team in the states were interested in in having one that that wasn't already on the air. I think that from what I understand it stick Wolf's favorite of his franchises. So I think he was very excited to try and get this up and running in another place. And I think that there was a feeling that this was suited to Canadian storytelling on some level because it's not high action. It's a lot it's quite it's quite cerebral this one and and that it's more about the home sherlock and watson kind of dynamic that they thought would be good for Canadian audiences. I think that they you know, that we don't Canadians don't, in my experience don't love a huge amount of running around with guns, you know, kind of fake action hero way you know. So

Wendy Mesley  8:02  
the whole Canadian thing is is fascinating. And I I must say we have seen Canadian scenes before you can identify Canadian things but the Toronto skyline Lake Ontario it was it was kind of great to see. So I wonder like, are we going to be seeing allies Toronto? Is Canada. Cool now.

Tassie Cameron  8:25  
I'm with you. I when I first started thinking about the show, I thought about the font, the title and our skyline. And it actually almost makes me well up sometimes they came about it. And I designed the first episode to really try and be a love letter to the city. And so I thought what better way to them to start on a boat with our skyline right there. And and really kind of hit it hit some of my favorite neighborhoods, Little India, China Town. You know, I was trying hard with the first episode to show Canadians and Torontonians that we would be that the city was a star of the show. And yeah, well, we we I mean episode four, the one that's coming out next Thursday. We shoot in in City Hall. We shouldn't I mean, we they lead us into City Hall. Wow. Which is incredible, you know, in a show about, you know, politicians and so we we've tried to pick really interesting locations, really diverse locations. It's mostly downtown Toronto this season. I think we're hoping to expand out a little bit if we get a second season, but it's really fun. It's one of the most fun things about working on the show and people are really open to letting us shoot. I mean, people are like, sure you can come except for transit that they spent especially a transit death.

Wendy Mesley  9:51  
Is that coming? Well, it's about time I must say because, I mean, we're big like Toronto is big Canada is Big. So, like, I know that we're not quite a secret anymore, but it's nice to see it emblazoned the way that you have.

Maureen Holloway  10:07  
It's nice to see Toronto playing Toronto and being celebrated as Toronto because up until recently, every time you've watched an American movie and you see something you got, hey, wait a second, that's the worldwide Plaza. Mean, and then everybody goes. And now it's just what it is.

Tassie Cameron  10:23  
I think a lot of Canadian television writers feel defensive about this, because some of it, I mean, me included, you know, I've been setting Toronto as Toronto in shows that I've been making for a long time. But there's something I think your intro said it beautifully. There's something about when it's embraced by a franchise so big, it just changes the game.

Maureen Holloway  10:46  
So you were involved with casting, I'm sorry, I didn't write down his last name Aiden and and Kathleen, are the detectives. He's from Atlanta, Canada. And you can tell from his accent, I love that just, there are little Canadian isms that would maybe not be perceived by a non Canadian audience. But I I do really love that. You brought up guns in that brings up the whole question of, of the justice system here. And there are laws are different. You're not gonna have a lot of gun event. I mean, we do have guns, I'm not naive, but you're not allowed to carry them around. So that brings its own challenge. And then the justice system is quite different. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And how you handle that.

Tassie Cameron  11:29  
We're trying to be as authentic to our country, our laws, our rules, our legal system as possible, which is why we sort of mistakenly in a way put some an extra in a judge's robe in the very first episode in the background. And actually, they're not really supposed to walk around on the street in their robes, which we learned afterwards.

Wendy Mesley  11:51  
Well, at least they don't wear those wigs. Like in the in the UK, there were those wigs.

Maureen Holloway  11:56  
I think it's called King's Council now, did they? I think they still wear wigs. Really? Yes. Oh, dear. Yeah. Usually, in a courtroom.

Wendy Mesley  12:07  
Probably a good thing like Sorry, Tassie Go ahead. We

Tassie Cameron  12:11  
from that kind of very first episode had decided we're going to be very, as true as possible. I mean, it's we're making television, you're always taking license into your storytelling, to some degree, but you know, that we're just gonna lean into our Canadian systems and laws, and, you know, explain them if we need to, but just kind of proceed that people will figure people are smart people will figure it out in other countries that we do things a little differently. I think the weirdest one for the writers was that I don't think any of us off the top realized that you're not entitled to a lawyer present, when

Maureen Holloway  12:49  
you're you're not.

Wendy Mesley  12:52  
You've watched to my salon order.

Maureen Holloway  12:55  
I know that you can't my son's in law school, and he was just you can't approach the bench. There's all sorts of things, but I didn't, I had no idea. You're not entitled to a lawyer. You're

Tassie Cameron  13:04  
not. And if you've been entitled to be questioned, they can let you have a lawyer. And often they do apparently, because you'll say more if you have a lawyer there. But I mean, I it kind of blew my mind. Or we have a crown prosecutor and very top defense lawyer as consultants. And I kept calling them saying is this? Are you sure? Sure.

Wendy Mesley  13:29  
Yeah. So are people more familiar with the show like with American law than they are with Canadian law? I mean, I'm not obviously I'm using myself as an example. I didn't know that there were still wigs. But I There are a lot of misconceptions. That's

Tassie Cameron  13:44  
the biggest one, I think, you know, and the the reading the rights is different here. And so there's a lot of the tropes you see on television are American. And you have to kind of undo that in when you're telling Canadian as a show with a Canadian legal component, because but the lawyer one was the main the main thing that surprised me and I realized how much of what I think about law comes from American television, which was embarrassing. So

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  14:16  
the women of ill repute.

Maureen Holloway  14:18  
You mentioned off the top about IKEA instructions, which I thought was pretty funny, but without showing us how the sausage is made. Can you tell us what some of the guidelines are? When it comes to law? Like there's a way of lighting things there's a way they said the way of walking and talking? That's the way it's shot? That I know that the actors themselves had to figure out that you can't both stand with your arms crossed, though that's probably just a good directorial point anyway, but are there codes that you can tell us or would that be letting the cat out of the bag? The

Tassie Cameron  14:49  
IKEA instructions that I was referring to and I probably shouldn't call them that. I wish they I wish. Well actually, I was gonna say that I wish they were as simple as IKEA instructions, but that we all know know that that's IKEA instructions are not about simple.

Wendy Mesley  15:04  
You just throw them out. And the first thing you do is throw

Maureen Holloway  15:07  
out the manual. That's

Tassie Cameron  15:09  
right and look for that Allen key. In our case, it was more about the scripts, it was more about how to construct an episode. So there, there were not, we did not get a kind of document or anything that shows that talk to us about how to shoot it or how to light it. Or we had a lot of consulting people in the US who would consult with us and talk to us about how to do it. But a lot of it was us just watching their shows and sort of figuring out what they did. In terms of us, it was more criminal intent is very specific, because you go into the points of view of the criminals. So it would sort of outline how many times you would they call them cutaways. How many times you would do a cutaway one per act and where they could be and, you know, so that it was more on that level about how to structure the script. Was it

Wendy Mesley  16:03  
hard for Americans to get their head around Toronto as being a place where there's a lot of crime? Because

Maureen Holloway  16:09  
yeah, Jimmy Kimmel made some joke about that. Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  16:12  
there seems to be this idea about that all day. We all say sorry. And we're all polite, and we're all really nice. Well, we're not there's lots of crime that happens in Toronto, you got lots of talk about.

Tassie Cameron  16:22  
They seem fairly knowledgeable about Toronto. And, you know, I think that any fears that we were too peaceful, and gentle acidity were assuaged when we sent our kind of first research document where we're like, here are the 8000 crimes we could use as inspiration, you know, strange badge

Maureen Holloway  16:41  
of honor, isn't it to say, look, we've got a lot of crap that happens here. It was Jimmy Kimmel said I think it was our Miranda rights, you have the right to say sorry about it. You're not allowed to tell us what the I mean, I've read some of the clues. You know, I believe there's a crack smoking politician coming up to you. I

Wendy Mesley  17:00  
wonder who that is? Yeah, I

Maureen Holloway  17:01  
know. I know. But there are some horrible stories that have happened that do happen here, just like anywhere else. And I wonder how you feel Tassie about writing about some things that are I mean, for it's entertainment, but it's, it also involves brutality that has been visited on the victims?

Tassie Cameron  17:23  
It's a very good question and a very challenging one to deal with. And there are some crimes that have to be handled very, very delicately, I would say Bruce MacArthur would be such a case that we didn't talk over as MacArthur in season one, and we may tackle it. But so that's, that's a story

Wendy Mesley  17:43  
about murdering men, and a serial killer. He sees what he's been accused of just just in case people don't know, or have forgotten. Yeah, it was, it was horrible with

Maureen Holloway  17:53  
the guard, they planted the body parts in the garden just to fill out the Lord picture.

Tassie Cameron  17:58  
Yes, and I mean, What's complicated about a case like that is obviously, that the police didn't handle it particularly well, and that it's a racialized story, and, of course, gay men. So you know, you've got a lot of pieces in a story like that. It just needs to be handled very thoughtfully. So I'm not saying we wouldn't do it, but we would do it very thought we would try to do it thoughtfully. It's really hard to talk about dead kids. Like, I keep thinking of ideas and then making the kid alive in my head, like rewriting it in my mind. And there are certain stories that I'm sure none of us want to hear again, in the same way like a Bernardo story I'm not sure that anybody in Canada wants a retelling of that.

Wendy Mesley  18:48  
I know people who had to go to the courtroom and cover that and uncover it and they've never been the same again so so thank you for not showing

Maureen Holloway  18:55  
up but but didn't lawn order one of the franchise's tackle that in the states that no Yeah, they did. They did.

Tassie Cameron  19:02  
They did. I mean, I'm, well, first of all, I need to say none of our stories are Docu dramas, right? We make it up, we take a headline, we use it as a as an inspiration, a place to start from but there's, we we try not to make it like the real story because it wouldn't be entertaining. It wouldn't be interesting if, if it's sort of, if it's a story we all know the ending to it's not you're not going to want to watch it on TV. So so just to be really clear, these are these stories are inspired by headlines, but not at all retelling. But I was gonna say I am however, interested in killers who are out of jail and living among us like that. That's a different facet of a familiar story that we might talk.

Maureen Holloway  19:44  
Let's go back to Wendy who wants to talk about Stevie Cameron, your mother? Probably an odd but appropriate segue.

Wendy Mesley  19:53  
Yeah, no, I do just I have very fond memories of your mom. So she was a she was a journalist and You know, I'm old, but she's like really old. So she's very she was, she was a real pioneer. And she wrote a number of books about politics and about crime. And she just did a lot. So I'm just wondering whether I think the you're hardly the only female showrunner. But I wonder how much of being raised by your mom has influenced where you are today? Because she was, she is pretty amazing.

Tassie Cameron  20:26  
She is pretty amazing. And she was a massive fan of yours one day, she loved you.

Wendy Mesley  20:32  
Oh, really? Well, I love her too.

Tassie Cameron  20:38  
She's, sadly has Parkinson's and dementia. So she is, I say was not because she's dead. But because she her mind is not the same. Which is just a terrible thing to happen to somebody whose mind was there everything, you know, anyway, but I think a huge part of why I do this job is because of my mom, certainly, my mom was a strong feminist. And she raised my sister, my sister, who's my partner in our company. Amy Yeah, he raised us to be strong, too, we always knew we were gonna be working hard, and that we were as capable as any guy in the room. And she made sure that we really understood that and felt that. And then also, there was the fact that she was obsessed with crime. And, you know, she, whether it was murder mystery books, or her own research shows, politics, serial killers, I mean, and so she was always, you know, she heard a siren, she would chase it, literally, we'd be on our way to school and suddenly following a fire truck or whatever. So I think that that was a big topic of conversation around our house. We knew police officers and journalists. And so I think my interest in that stuff comes very much through being my mother's daughter. Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  21:57  
I was really struck by what your mother means a lot to me, but also about how you wrote the you're inspired by two things that Virginia Woolf said, one is, have a room of your own. And the other is make enough money to support yourself. And those sound like such old ideas now, but they're, they're not like that's sort of the way that I was raised by my mom, sort of on her own. And I think those principles, it's a little hard to pay for a room of your own,

Maureen Holloway  22:27  
they go hand in hand. You don't usually get one without the other.

Tassie Cameron  22:31  
They do. But they were very, that was very important to my to my mother, she was she kept saying, you can't rely on somebody else to cover your expenses, you have to be able to have your own your own life. And it was very important to her, you know, and as a single mother, myself, I'm glad I learned that lesson.

Wendy Mesley  22:50  
So what do you watch now?

Maureen Holloway  22:55  
What do you watch? What have you what are your What are your favorite television shows, and they don't necessarily have to be crime related.

Tassie Cameron  23:01  
I always forget when I'm asked this question, and so I just can think of the things that I'm watching. Now, I have to admit, sometimes when I'm in the process of making television, I don't watch it as much because it starts to feel a bit like homework, I start analyzing it and either thinking, Oh my God, they're such geniuses, I should just quit. Or, oh my God, why did they put that storyline in that order? Or, you know, so? So what sometimes when I'm in the thick of it, I don't watch so much television. I love slow horses. That's one of my favorite shows. Yeah,

Maureen Holloway  23:36  
that's in production, as I think they're going into their fourth season now. And he used to be hot. He still is actually which Gary Oldman and Tim Roth and they all walked in a fashion show recently. Gary Oldman looks like a bag of shit. Thanks to the makeup people. He does not look that bad. And doesn't wash his hair. No, no. That isn't great. Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  24:00  
it's not good. But anyway, I hope that that it works for you Tassie, I hope that it gets extended and I and I hope that people will see Toronto and go Yeah, who

Maureen Holloway  24:13  
we can make great shows here about here. It doesn't have to be about other people. So it's been a pleasure to meet you. Tassie Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  24:20  
thank you Tassie Thank you.

Maureen Holloway  24:22  
Thank you Well, that was so nice about Stevie Cameron and sad. Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  24:31  
I guess you know, I happen to my mom to the dimension and she's I Googled her because you know, she was a pioneer way before I started and she's ad only ad that's what happens to people that was so what's happened to my mom and and it's sad so she she was still there, my mom but

Maureen Holloway  24:52  
that's what's heartbreaking. And it always worries me that it seems to be that these big brains these highly creative, articulate people it's a greater loss, because you know, they're still alive. But everything we know about them has disappeared. And I would how it happened with my dad as well. It's just anyway.

Wendy Mesley  25:11  
Well, it's so nice that she's really imprinted on. We haven't met Amy the sister but I'm sure it's the same thing as she's really imprinted on on Tassie and antacid is now doing something really cool. And this series I mean, I, I can't tell you I mean, it sort of goes back to your idea of we love it when Americans think we're great. And here's this American series and it's so cool like Lake Ontario like I've been in Lake Ontario repeatedly in it. In it, everything looks so familiar. It's it's kind of even

Maureen Holloway  25:43  
though they show the GRE obviously because it's a crime series they show the greedy side of it and they don't flinch about that because that's that's what the show is about. But it is Toronto as Toronto and I always feel like a hit going oh, well we're world class city you as soon as you say that you're not but it is just a it is a beautiful city and we knock it all the time and to be able to see it in this light is is a nice thing and Tassie is obviously doing a fantastic job and enjoying it so yeah, nothing wrong there. Oh, I got a taste of it. You can't do I have a friend in law school? You know, he's now a very well established lawyer but he was doing a moot trial in law school who said no, you don't do that until you King's cancel now, but he asked the judge it was like a what they called a moot court like a fake a trial. And he asked the judge if he could approach the bench What is His law and order? approach the bench in Canada? He'll get down a little cotton fab with the judge sit down wow so much of what we know what the judicial system is based on American court dramas and it is quite different here and yes, we do Wix Can you do the sound effects one more time? Okay, wait, dun dun. Do you know there's a whole story about how Mike Post created that sound and it's a story in itself and you should look it up because it's fascinating. It's got layer upon layer upon layer of sound effects to make it so hard to do on your own. I

Wendy Mesley  27:09  
won't do it. Okay.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  27:14  
Women of ill repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley With the help from the team at the soundoff media company and producer yet Val graver