Natalie MacLean: Glass Half Full

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women of ill Repute with your hosts, Wendy Mesley. And Maureen Holloway.

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
Well, um, you know, I may not know a lot about wine, but I do know what I like.

Wendy Mesley  0:12  
So what do you like? Why? Yeah, me too. Orange wine, red wine, white wine. I like I like everything. Maybe too much or 30% study, according to that study

Maureen Holloway  0:26  
data. What's lalalalala that study? No, I don't want to hear about that study. But I will admit to spending a  significant portion of my of my grocery dollar on wine.

Wendy Mesley  0:38  
So fess up, then how much

Maureen Holloway  0:41  
do you How much do I trade? Yeah, I know. I'd rather I'd rather tell you how much I make or or how often I have sacks, actually.

Wendy Mesley  0:50  
Really? Yeah. Not reading tea. Yeah. So anyway, our guest this week, she actually knows a lot about wine, the wine industry sort of a fair amount about journalism, a lot about marketing, and particularly how it targets women.

Maureen Holloway  1:10  
We're talking to Natalie MacLean, who's author of a highly successful newsletter, as well as several books about wine, including a brand new one called wine witch on fire. And although it seems that she has a dream job, she had a terrible experience within the industry. That kind of mirrors what happened to you, Wendy, when you left the CBC? Ah, yeah, we're gonna go there. Yeah, a little bit about that.

Wendy Mesley  1:32  
We are, there's a just a little we are going to talk about my die methods, etc. But mostly, we're going to talk about how sexism is in the wine industry and what a wine taster actually does and how much is too much.

Maureen Holloway  1:47  
And well, we have or we're gonna get some tips I hope like what to look for in a less expensive wine or what wine goes with artichokes?

Wendy Mesley  1:55  
What with with artichoke?

Maureen Holloway  1:57  
Yeah, that's a tough pair.

Wendy Mesley  1:59  
You really eat that many artists? Like really?

Maureen Holloway  2:11  
Like artichokes. All right. With no further ado, Natalie, we claim thank you for putting up with that intro was really nice to see you out in your field there.

Natalie MacLean  2:20  
It's great to be here, Wendy. And well, I think we could have this conversation over a glass or two. You seem like my people, my wine people.

Maureen Holloway  2:28  
We have, honestly Woody and I have a lot of conversations over a glass or three, but not usually while we're doing the podcast. But I mean, we could start at any time.

Wendy Mesley  2:37  
Yeah. So in the background, there's this vineyard or something. So are you you're like, obviously, I'm standing in your field. You're where are you?

Natalie MacLean  2:43  
I'm a field reporter. Yeah, that's a painting from California. And I did get permission from the artists to use it as my backdrop. Yes, I've learned a lot in the last 10 years. Oh, wow. But yeah, it's the old inglenook winery. It's now the Francis Ford Coppola, where you can go see all the movie memorabilia and that sort of thing in his winery.

Wendy Mesley  3:04  
Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I want to get this out of the way, because I must admit, like, I knew you were a wine reviewer, and I sort of knew about that, but I didn't know until I read the book. About how Yeah, I mean, the book is about, it's about drinking, it's about divorce, but it's also about defamation. That's in the title. Oh, the three Ds. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean  3:26  
Yeah, all the dismal DS, the publishing team said you cannot have delirium, destitution, or diarrhea.

Wendy Mesley  3:35  
So anyway, I was kind of struck by the parallels. And then I thought, you know, let's just ignore this because I hate bringing my story about what happened to the CBC and so on. Onto the podcast, but there's so so it says, Okay, if we talk about that. So, yeah, so I mean, your your thing was not to go too deeply into the weeds, your thing was, basically it was, you quoted a bunch of other people's reviews, and you didn't properly cite their, you know, their references and their backgrounds and so on and so forth. Mine was a lot more complicated. I basically I use the N word, I should never have used the N word. I used the whole word, but I was it was with a bunch of colleagues and we were

Maureen Holloway  4:16  
it was not used in a derogatory term. You were I this is important to point out you were actually quoting the title of another piece that you guys wanted to explore. So

Wendy Mesley  4:27  
yeah, well, we were George Floyd had just been killed and by the police and it was a very emotional time and and I hurt people I should not have used that word and I apologized immediately we can get into that because you sort of apologize without apologizing. So anyway, it was just it blew up and I sort of expected that the CBC would come to my defense after punishing me which they should have. Anyway your your situation that like the whole thing, like blew up. I got completely trashed. You got completely trashed, but you But you handled things differently. First of all, you actually had a lawyer, which I've never had. And the lawyer told you, whatever you do, do not apologize. So I just like, how did you figure out how to get out of out of that hole?

Natalie MacLean  5:13  
Sure. So sorry, is the most expensive word in the English language is it admits guilt and it can be used litigious ly against you. I didn't go to journalism school. And this isn't excuse number one, but I just was so naive. This was back in 2012, kind of the heyday of aggregators, so Huffington Post, and rotten tomatoes, and so on. And when I started quoting these reviews that were actually on the LCBO, the government liquor store site for Ontario, it was because I noticed some other sites doing it. Anyway, I'm a glass half full kind of gal. So I thought, I'm not going to ask them to take down my reviews, I'm just going to do it too. Because doesn't that provide more context for wine? Somebody else's opinion, in addition to mine? Wrong? So I, you know, the, the legal advice I got was that I was within the bounds of fair use. Well, it's called Fair Dealing in Canada. And it's good if we don't go down the legal rabbit hole, because this will get very tedious very well never get out. Yeah, this will be your lowest rated podcast ever. But it didn't matter what what the legalities were, or that, you know, I offered to fix them, or whatever it was, the accusation ignited, literally a bonfire. And then it just spiraled from there to other websites, and newspapers around the world, from the South Africa times to the New York Post, it was crazy, all within the span of like 24, maybe 48 hours. So we didn't talk a lot about canceled culture back in 2012. But I think I can speak from experience what it's like. And even when you try to jump in, and do any explaining, you add fuel to the fire. So you know, whether you explain it goes wild, whether you don't explain then they say Hey, she's like not answering the accusations.

Wendy Mesley  7:14  
I found that so interesting. Because you you chose to fight back. So you gave you gave interviews, and you told people that, that that that you had made a mistake, and that you were going to fix it. But you also kind of told people to screw off or as I, you know, I've worked at CDC for 40 years, and it took it took a year of being investigated. And during that time, I just thought, you know, they're gonna want me back. I've been here for 40 years, I made a mistake I hurt people without ever meaning to, but they're gonna want me back. They didn't want me back. They were perfectly happy to feed the trolls. And then the trolls take over. And as you say, like, in your case, the trolls they went, they went crazy, including some of your colleagues. They went

Maureen Holloway  7:56  
crazy. It was I looked at the whole thread of after when all this broke in the what was the day after Christmas? Was it? It was a week before?

Natalie MacLean  8:06  
It was just a week before? My Nightmare Before Christmas? Yeah.

Maureen Holloway  8:09  
Yeah. And it was just the vitriol and the piling on.

Natalie MacLean  8:14  
Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's sort of the false fellowship of hating the same person, people want to be part of something larger. And so they'll find some cause whether you know, for good or bad, but there's some sort of beyond herd mentality that takes over online. And I think it's made even worse these days with bots, encouraging people to get bolder and bolder, you know, with what I call their keyboard courage. So it is really hard to, to, to, you know, to start, you can't stop it. The only thing you can hope for is it dies from lack of oxygen, or they find the next person

Maureen Holloway  8:52  
to go after which they do, which they does. And they do they always

Natalie MacLean  8:56  
do. And that's how the mine ended. Yeah. Yeah. It's

Wendy Mesley  8:59  
interesting what it does to friends do like I had a very, very close friend who, you know, two years after the fact said to me when I'm really sorry, I should have stood up for you more than I did, because so many people thought well, the nobody's talking about it, because I didn't talk about it for a year. You did you gave interviews you were public. And I didn't talk about and so people were like even a journalist and the another network in Ottawa, told a friend of mine Oh, yeah. Well, she she called somebody the No, I didn't, I would never do so. You're right. I mean, people, trolls, they basically take information and they use it to advance their own agenda, whatever that agenda is, whether it's for good or ill, it's just anyways, it took you 10 years to write this. And now here you are. A slow writer. Why 10 years,

Natalie MacLean  9:49  
10 years because, well, for five years, I couldn't look at the notes at the time the the lawyer told me take screenshots, keep the journal entries going. And so I did that almost mechanically. And then I locked it away. And I couldn't look at those notes for five years. Because, you know, it's just, I mean, I'm not going to compare. Well, I guess I am in some ways, when, when someone's in a car accident, they've done studies with MRI brain scans, and they will read the script of the accident to them. And the brain lights up in the exact same areas in ways as if they're experiencing the accident. So they're not remembering it, they're reliving it. So for five years, I just could not look at those notes. And after five years, I thought, well, this story is just keeps ricocheting around in my, my head, I need to let it out, at least on paper. And so I did as a private exercise for making sense of what had happened. But I had no intention of publishing a book.

Wendy Mesley  10:51  
I've got a whole stash of notes, screenshot. And are all Yeah, so give it to me, I've got quotes, I've got proof of people saying things that would get them fired for like, way worse than then what I supposedly did. So it's Yeah, so another five years, we'll be done.

Maureen Holloway  11:12  
Or you let it go. I mean, I'm speaking, I have not experienced what you guys have experienced. I've had my own traumas, but nothing quite like that. And there's also an argument for saying, okay, shit happened. But I but I still my talent hasn't been taken, like download, well, whatever our talent is, didn't wasn't taken away. And let's focus on that, which I think you've also done because you have climbed out of that the ashes of that year, you also underwent a divorce. Like it was just the worst year ever.

Natalie MacLean  11:43  
It was a bad vintage. It was a really bad vintage personally and professionally. A lot of DS Yeah, exactly all the days. But you know, like to pick up on both your points. This the turnaround in terms of deciding to write about it publicly. I mean, I kept it well, I kept talking with women in the industry, because what happened was pre me to pre Harvey Weinstein. And then the wine industry is so clubby. I mean, there is a real social grapevine where you can get delisted very quickly. ostracized. So after that, those five years, and after hearing so many stories, I thought, well, you know, I've heard memoirs say, Well, I write my story. So other people feel less alone. I thought, well, what does that really mean? If our situations are so different? Mine and the readers? How can my story help anybody? And so I need to think about that for a while, like, what am I doing here? But I think, you know, I make the comparison, like when we're parents, and we all have, I think children, adults in their 2324 ish range. But when they are little, we ask them questions. So are you hungry? Are you sad? You know, because we're trying to give them that vocabulary to express their emotions so that they don't have to always resort to crying and tantrums and just screaming. And I think as adults, we forget that our emotions, feelings get more complex as we age. And, you know, Brene Brown, I love her Dr. Brene Brown in her Atlas of the heart book, she she deals with 87 emotions, because we've lost, we were either lost or don't have the vocabulary to express ourselves. But when we can express ourselves, when we find the words, I think it unlocked something in us, whether it's peace or relief, or whatever. So the stories that I'm getting back from early readers is that they are finding themselves in this book, but through a completely different experience. And, you know, they may not have gone through a divorce, but they've probably felt loneliness, or the longing for love. They may not have been, you know, chased down by an angry mob online, but they've probably felt career disappointment or fear of the future. So what I think good memoir does is allow you to experience all those emotions, put names to them, articulate them, but that you can go through somebody else's story safely, and see how someone can emerge on the other side, you know, stronger, wiser whatever.

Wendy Mesley  14:09  
You talk about sexism in the industry, I mean, Maureen and radio face a lot of sexism. We can talk about that. In television, certainly there's a lot but but how bad is it in the in the wine industry?

Natalie MacLean  14:20  
It's pretty deep rooted. I can't avoid all these puns, but sorry. I'll try to find another metaphor if I can, but it's my world. So the wine world is so I said so clubby it's much less formalized than the restaurant industry. So most wineries in Canada in the US have fewer than 20 employees. Most don't have an HR department, let alone a harassment policy. So and all the mentorships we're training is usually one on one. So whether you want to become a winemaker or sommelier, or whatever you want to do in the industry, it's usually a one on one relationship with someone with a much bigger power different drill, which of course lends itself to abuse. Lots of studies have been out there. I mean, 2012 10 years ago, so must be all better and brighter. Now it's not they did a 2018 study where 89% of women in the hospitality industry, which includes wineries and restaurants, experienced some form of sexual harassment. In 2020, The New York Times broke broke the story of the court of Master Sommeliers, where there was allegations and 21 women came forward about getting sexually harassed by the court of Master Sommeliers, which is a really hoity toity kind of a designation you can get in the wine world. So that's, that's 2020, I think there are more stories that are going to come out. It's just it's really hard to talk about it in the wine industry. And that's another reason I'm doing this book because I figured you can't kill me twice. Maybe I'm wrong, I could be wrong.

Maureen Holloway  16:00  
It's, it's his sort of corollary of that, because this is how women are treated within the industry. They don't have to get outside as consumers. That's something that you've been very outspoken about. And I was just saying to Wendy, before you, we joined us that immediately if I see something that's pink, and says, like, Well, girls night out is probably the most prominent example or has a rose on the bottom of the bottle or and it's like, stop that. Stop selling me that based on pretty and it's been insidious, and it's encouraged women to, to like to, to brace the idea that you're not having fun, unless you're getting bogged down,

Natalie MacLean  16:38  
you know, and that we as women need a reason to drink. You know, it's girls night out, or it's a fancy location. Oh, yeah. Or moms had an exhausting day. So no one's thanking mom. So, Mom, thank herself with another glass of wine, you know, and the message on the bottle is that we are, you know, we're either babes or battle axes. So babes, you know, drawn to, you know, stilettos and high heels and red lips and roses. Or we're battle axes. I mean, there's mad high housewife is brand and so on. But no, the marketing that I see directed towards men and wine is about sophistication and complexity, and a man has a drink because he wants to know when he doesn't have to ask. But yeah, women, women by 80% of wine, we're still a household purchasers of everything we drink 66% of it.

Wendy Mesley  17:29  
I never thought of, you know, thinking I'm a rah, rah, feminist kind of person. I've never thought that my drinking was actually a feminist.

Natalie MacLean  17:37  
It's like the Virginia slim cigarettes of the 1960s those torches of freedom. You can declare,

Maureen Holloway  17:43  
you've come a long way, baby. Not if you're still calling me baby. Exactly, exactly.

Natalie MacLean  17:47  
Pour yourself another glass.

Wendy Mesley  17:49  
But what about the artichokes? That's what Maureen really wants to know.

Maureen Holloway  17:53  
Well, no. Well, we can get into pairings but like the practical stuff, but I want to ask you before we get into that very specific stuff, so I've I was fascinated. And it reminded me I think Elvis Costello or Frank Zappa once said, writing about music is like dancing about architecture. And I thought that applies to writing about wine, which is such a sensual and physical experience is it's tough. You are it you are a what do you call them is not a super taster.

Natalie MacLean  18:24  
Yes. That doesn't mean I drink a lot though. I used to.

Maureen Holloway  18:29  
Tell us about that and how you translate that into writing about it, and then we'll get to the artichokes.

Natalie MacLean  18:34  
Sure, super taster is a phenomenon that was discovered in 1999 by Dr. Linda Barish. Duck, and she tasted or tested various people how dense the tastebuds are. And she discovered that the phenomenon was super taster applies to about 25% of the population, most of whom are women. And it just means you have a lot of taste buds. She said they live in a sensory neon world. It's like having 500 fingers instead of five. So I've seen that in the movie.

It gets worse. So it makes you more sensitive taster. And not necessarily a better taster that comes with practice. But what goes along with that is a sensitivity to your world. So when I got tested to see if I was one, the the person testing me said I'll bet you take out the tags of all your clothing and I do a bet you have.

Wendy Mesley  19:31  
Oh, I do that. But I'm not a wine reviewer.

Maureen Holloway  19:35  
But you bet you're super sensitive,

Natalie MacLean  19:36  
sensitive. Yeah, like living in a neon world have thermostat wars with your family. Like just super attuned to every little muscle twitch someone makes or whatever. Tea not coffee. very attuned. Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  19:50  
that's what we say. Anyway, very attuned, very attuned. So can you not be a sommelier if you're, if you're not a super taster?

Natalie MacLean  19:58  
Oh, eat sure you can be a Definitely can be a sommelier can be wine writer and so on. It's not a prerequisite. In fact, some would argue that it's can work against you sometimes because you will come across a very big wine, a full body, lots of oak, lotta alcohol and it's just like a turn it down. It's like the guy who's too loud at the bar. It's like, you don't want to take that one home. But you have to recognize like, there's a broad spectrum of palates. And so when I review wines, I'm reviewing it for people who love full bodied wines. You love this wine, that kind of thing. Yeah. The women of ill repute

Maureen Holloway  20:39  
I was fascinated to hear about your, the, the, the setup that you have. So you've got cases of wine all over your house that people send you and you try to taste 30 bottles a day. So I have two questions, or is there a lot of spitting? And secondly, what happens to the all the open holes and do you need any help with that?

Wendy Mesley  21:03  
Can we come

Maureen Holloway  21:05  
I guess that's three questions.

Natalie MacLean  21:06  
recycling day here is just an embarrassment on the street with the crowds fighting.

Maureen Holloway  21:13  
It is here to and I'm not I hide my blue box. But But tell me what like so you could send all this stuff. How and you take notes and you go you go down the the the the row and you and you sip all these wines and and you clean your palate. Tell me more like

Natalie MacLean  21:32  
what's the difference between tasting and drinking is thinking and spitting. So you do have to expect rate spit, or else you will be sloshed. Like, the best time to taste in the day is at 9am and facing 30 You know, full body Cabernets through jelly is not exactly you know, a lovely thing, although I have no sympathy no sympathy for my job. But yeah, I will I will taste usually actually later in the day, compare like to like, line up those bottles. And then what I do, I only take an ounce or two and then spit it out. I record all the bottles and pass them on to other sommeliers or writers here in the community so that the wineries we're sending me samples will get more than one review, of course, so if we look at it over

Wendy Mesley  22:19  
I guess, Maureen Yeah, no. Sadly, my

Natalie MacLean  22:23  
friends like looked like Oh, is that what you do with them? Oh, okay.

Maureen Holloway  22:27  
Joe. Yeah. Oh. Oh, yeah. So yeah, pairing that you you're also you have a knack for pairing like like, unparalleled. It's my

Natalie MacLean  22:39  
superpower. So artichokes getting to the heart of the matter. So I come from Nova Scotia. So it's all about hands and I cannot help myself anyway. So artichokes and asparagus both produce a natural organic compound called cinnamon, which is taste very bitter. So what happens is that after you eat artichokes, everything you eat and drink after that is going to taste sweeter by comparison. So that really wreaks havoc on wine, especially if you have maybe even off dry, just a little bit of sweetness and your wine is going to taste really cloying and sweet. So the answer or the recommendation I give is to go with a really bone dry white wine. So it's going to bring up the fruit make it taste a little sweeter, but not cloying. And, you know your taste buds will be happy and your artichoke will be tasting better as well. Good to know.

Maureen Holloway  23:35  
So we've we've debunked the you know, read only red with red meat and only white with chicken on wood that we've broken down those those those barriers I guess but whether Rosae

Natalie MacLean  23:49  
Oh, yes Rosie all day, although I'm supposed to be talking moderation after this book

Maureen Holloway  23:54  
or get we'll get to that anything. What are we? Well.

Natalie MacLean  23:56  
Rosie is a beautiful wine. Just love it like so we have to forget the 1970s 80s Sweet cloying, syrupy, pink stuff. Today's roses are beautiful. They're they could be bone dry. Not that they have to be bone dry to be good. Because we shouldn't be doing any wine shaming with people who likes sweet wine. Can we stop doing that? But Rosae I love because it has all of the flavor of a red wine often.

Maureen Holloway  24:27  
It's a baby red, isn't it? I mean, a lot of people are have no idea what roses. Some people think it's a red and white board together.

Natalie MacLean  24:34  
Which Yeah, that would be the cheap way. But the good way is that you grow red, good red grapes. And it's called Sun yay. or bleeding, which doesn't sound good, but it's the run off the lighter pink juice from the first crush of the grapes. So it's got all that flavor, but none of the heavy tan and oak and alcohol.

Wendy Mesley  24:54  
Well, I have a quote for you and it's from somebody who makes bread for a living. And it's a while I don't know Who it's originally from, but it's everything in moderation, including moderation.

Maureen Holloway  25:03  
Yeah, exactly.

Wendy Mesley  25:06  
So I think we should apply that to, to drinking. So yeah, so you're like a spinner now, right? Like you used to drink a lot. And now you're now you drink this together. That's

Maureen Holloway  25:15  
gotta be tough. That has got to be really tough because you can't not drink. That's your job. And I would also while we're on the subject of tasting and spitting, I mean, there's a do you get the full effect if you don't swallow? And by the way, we're, if you're just joining us, we're talking about wine.

Natalie MacLean  25:34  
It's a good question. So there's five aspects to tasting wine, the sight, the smell, the feel, the body and the finish. The finish is how long after you swallow does that impression last? Five seconds is considered long, like all sensual pleasures, I think longer is better. But anyway, or one to two seconds is short, three seconds. Medium. I know that sounds really technical, but it's basically can you is it still coming back to you like a good memory? Smell wise? Yeah. It is hard to evaluate the wines you are absorbing through your soft tissue of your mouth anyway. But you know, if you really want to be exact, you let a small trickle go down. But you know, when you're when you're tasting 30 wines and so on. You really I have to watch it in terms of, you know, how much consuming

Maureen Holloway  26:29  
barnyard and I love Barnyard. Yeah. Fruit salad.

Wendy Mesley  26:34  
So how much of it is BS? Because you know, I said like dandelion this and dog poo this and yeah. Yeah, like some of that stuff is like, yeah, you went to school and whatever. And some of it is oh, you know, I do taste the cherries are. But the I don't know, who comes up with all that stuff. And and is it all true? You can tell us Topsy. Okay.

Natalie MacLean  27:00  
Okay, just between us then. Lean in here. Okay. Yeah, the vocabulary of wine has evolved over time and needs to go a long way. Because there's even embedded sexism with calling wines feminine and masculine and all the rest of it. But when it comes to this fruit salad stuff, I think that is, you know, wind succeeds where words fail, because wine is a sensory experience. And it's hard to track that in words. So people are trying and struggling with all of these descriptors. But you know, when I teach my online courses, I tell my students just smell everything in your world around you. You know, when you cut open fruit or vegetables, that's when it's most pungent. Smell it, develop a smell vocabulary. We live in a world that really we've attuned our visual sense and our auditory sense, but we've lost our sniffer sense that we used to have to have to avoid dying. So smell everything smell the leather furniture. Just don't let anybody see you doing it. smell the smell the cinnamon on your toast. I'm practicing for my wine course. But you have to develop your own vocabulary. What one course that I taught. This woman said, well, that smells like the Dallas airport. And everybody's puzzle we're tasting Riesling, and then we put it together sometimes Riesling can taste or smell a bit like petrol and it's a good thing. So she's smelling the jet fuel. Another one said that smells like my son's gerbil cage. We don't Oh, no, you don't but it's a whole lot more realistic. Was

Maureen Holloway  28:41  
it cedar?

Natalie MacLean  28:42  
Yes. The wood chips for durables cage. So yeah, be you can be real about these descriptors. You don't have to get all fancy and it's about developing your own smell vocabulary so that you heighten your own pleasure. I think what we appreciate what we understand we can appreciate a bit more, but it's okay, if you don't want to just drink the wine. Don't think

Wendy Mesley  29:02  
so. Just saying you know, I sometimes say to my husband something as profound as it smells like dog poo, but but in a good way, in a good way.

Maureen Holloway  29:10  
Well, like Yeah, but like manure, there's that that sort of earthy smell. Yeah,

Natalie MacLean  29:15  
I know. That's that barnyard thing? Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's a common characteristic aroma in great Pinot Noir. Some people don't like it, for obvious reasons. Sometimes it's caused by brettanomyces, which is a bacterial infection, but some people actually like it. So it just depends on your taste.

Maureen Holloway  29:34  
I love I know it's weird all the factory I love the smell of markers and gasoline. You know that

Natalie MacLean  29:40  
me too. Oh, I could just stay at a gas station all day but I think it's because my father was a mechanic I don't know.

Maureen Holloway  29:47  
But it's weird. It's just like that attraction. I don't want to taste it. I don't want to do but i The smell is heavy. Just as an aside I remember. I think it was dip teak or one of the one of the first really expensive candles were being introduced. And they had, there was one that was called Versailles. And I smelt it. And I said to the person, I think it was at Liberty in London and I said, this smells a little bit like P. And she said, Well, it's funny that you say that because it's expensive. P It's very expensive. But she said Versailles, they used to pee behind the tapestries. And so that smell, I know, well, they didn't have plumbing. And so that smell is sort of imbued in the, the wood and the so when you go to Versailles there, the distinctiveness from that and so they put that on the candle, and I'm like, Wow, that's crazy.

Wendy Mesley  30:38  
It didn't buy it used to be a seminar. Yeah, I mean, if you could smell the key, and now I

Maureen Holloway  30:42  
have to my sign. Well, that's the other thing too. You have to be in a certain I have when he's been recovering from a cold for the last six years, and six weeks, six weeks, and I know it's allergy season right now and let you've got to be especially sensitive to that. Because what have you what, like COVID? What if you lost your sense of taste and smell? Well,

Natalie MacLean  31:03  
during my terrible vintage, I did temporarily lose my sense of smell. And you know, smelling tasting trying to bunch of Shiraz is and I was like, oh, no, I don't smell anything. And it was temporary. But you know, I did some research on it and talk to my doctor. But depression can cause lack of a loss of smell because your brain size shrinks. And those that olfactory sense is very sensitive to that. And so I think it was probably related. It scared the heck out of me though. Because, you know, my nose is my job.

Wendy Mesley  31:38  
We got to wrap up in a minute. But I was I was while I'm first I was struck by the similarities with like, I met my dad when I was 18. You met yours when you when you were 16 that, you know, leaves a bit of a marker which may become apparent in another 10 or 15 years. But you talk about you devote your book to your dear mom. And yeah, I think my mum I've sort of She died two years ago and I've been thinking about a lot about her since. But it's all about being brave. And I think that's I think Maureen I think you and I think that's why we invite people on the on the podcast is because they're trying to be brave.

Maureen Holloway  32:14  
No scaredy pants allowed.

Natalie MacLean  32:18  
Just women of ill repute. I love that.

Maureen Holloway  32:21  
Well, you know, that makes us stronger or, or funny anyway, but in by salutely

Natalie MacLean  32:27  
Just like witches like you know, I think some of these words we just need to stop being afraid of an embrace. I mean, reclaim is an overused word. But for me, which is a you know, a wise woman who's walked through the flames and emerged on the other side knowing the measure of her powers, which is

Maureen Holloway  32:44  
a book is called I want to call it the wine The Witch and the Wardrobe but it's wine. I do. Its wine which on fire. And are you going to be doing a book tour or is it

Natalie MacLean  32:55  
I am so Toronto may 10. Niagara may 13. Halifax Jun. 12. Calgary sometime. Ottawa is May 31. So,

Maureen Holloway  33:06  
yeah, that's where you're living now. Right? You're not You're in Ottawa.

Natalie MacLean  33:09  
This is where I am now. Yeah. So there's always books and bottles.

Wendy Mesley  33:12  
No, she's in the field. She's

Maureen Holloway  33:14  
in. She's in the field. She's outstanding in her field. Yeah, I'm

Natalie MacLean  33:17  
in the field. You know where to get me. If you're watching

Maureen Holloway  33:21  
us on YouTube, you'll see that it's a B. That's a beautiful mural. Natalie, we claim you are. You're just to as we're gonna say after you leave, wasn't she lovely? Thank you so much for for for being so open and helpful. Now we know what to pair with artichokes. That's the very least that we've learned this week.

Natalie MacLean  33:42  
I'm glad that I could help you with that. That was my number one mission and reason for being here today. If anything, I can save them from their artichoke disasters. Seriously. I so appreciate both of you, allowing me to chat with you and by extension your audience. I have binge listened to all of your episodes and absolutely love your take on life and would love to have a glass of wine with you sometime.

Maureen Holloway  34:06  
Oh, that's almost certain to happen and your newsletter just to to subscribe. Just go to Natalie maclean.com.

Natalie MacLean  34:13  
Yep. And sometimes people find that hard to spell. There's many ways to spell it. So I've also got the URL right now wine which on fire.com. For the book, I've got bonuses for the book, if people purchase it, I'll send them signed bookplates there's a free companion guide for book clubs, wine groups and individual reader so there's lots of stuff there at wine which.com

Wendy Mesley  34:33  
and Maureen and I will be by your

Natalie MacLean  34:38  
recycling so

Maureen Holloway  34:42  
quickly. Thank you so much.

Natalie MacLean  34:44  
Oh, thank you both cheers.

Maureen Holloway  34:46  
Cheers. Bye. Thank

Wendy Mesley  34:47  
you.

Maureen Holloway  34:51  
Well, she was she was loving

Wendy Mesley  34:57  
well, some are lonelier than others. They are well you know why? get very nervous talking about the whole cancellation thing that

Maureen Holloway  35:03  
I know you do. I know. But it's amazing how many times we've had guests on in the past who have. And that's kind of one of the reasons why we started this podcast is there are people that come up against and not just women who come up against some serious roadblock in their careers or their personal lives, and have to get around it. And that's, you know, we bring empathy to the table, because that's happened to us. So,

Wendy Mesley  35:28  
yeah, there were so many other things I wanted to ask her, you know, like, tomatoes, hard to pair to make love and asparagus. I mean, I didn't know Yes, and artichokes are in the same family, but only one makes your pee funny. So we didn't get to talk about some really important.

Maureen Holloway  35:45  
I don't think we covered it all. Yeah, I was, uh, I've done you've been to wine tastings, haven't you where you do spit into the thing I've been to if Yeah,

Wendy Mesley  35:54  
no, my husband's really into wine. And he would spend his days spitting in the glasses. And I'm like, Oh, look outside. I'm not going

Maureen Holloway  36:02  
to be it's like, wow, this is good. My reaction is not to spin. This is good. I'll have more.

Wendy Mesley  36:12  
times we dropped the hint. Like we'd like to come over and collect the ball. Yeah, well, I

Maureen Holloway  36:15  
think we'd absolutely be welcome to What not click, I think she'd like to have a glass of wine. I'd like to have a glass of wine with her. I'd have I'd like to have one last one with a lot of our guests. So I guess that's a good thing. Except for the ones that don't drink. I'm gonna it's still you know, they could have ginger ale.

Wendy Mesley  36:31  
Yeah, well, we didn't get into the study. So we'll have to have a we'll have to have a conversation about I don't think it was two sips a week. And there was two classes a week or one Yeah, right. I

Maureen Holloway  36:41  
know. That's real that that was maybe the worst news of 2022 Yeah, well, I

Wendy Mesley  36:47  
can't fix everything at once.

Maureen Holloway  36:55  
Cheers 

Wendy Mesley  36:56  
BYE

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  36:57  
women of ill repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy messily, with the help from the team at the sound off media company and producer Jet Belgraver.