Dr. Jennifer Gunter: The Gyno Guru

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway.

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
Wendy you grew up the only child of a single mother and I wonder, was your mother open with you about the wonders of being a woman? 

Wendy Mesley  0:17  
Oh, yeah, she was probably way too open. Like, I was eight years old and we were sitting on the edge of a dock looking out of a lake and I felt very, very grown up and so when Kate was eight, when our daughter was was eight, I told her all the secrets about sex and being a woman, and she was like, oh, no, Mom, please, please, please don't tell me. She ran away screaming. What about you?

Maureen Holloway  0:44  
I didn't get much. I was the eldest, but my mother wasn't forthcoming. I recall being given a pamphlet from Johnson and Johnson called 'Now you are a woman'. And it had a picture of a brown haired girl with a ribbon in her hair, and a peter pan collar. And she's kind of looking off into the light and thinking about a woman and there was a lot of information about belts. Do you  remember belts?

Wendy Mesley  1:09  
Oh, unfortunately, I remember that. Oh, they were horrible. They were like harnesses, attach them to pads or - 

Maureen Holloway  1:16  
Yeah and on that note, my mother also said you don't use tampons until you are married? 

Wendy Mesley  1:21  
Well, I don't know where to go. God actually.

Maureen Holloway  1:26  
It's just you know what, I didn't wait, but given that the average woman can expect about 40 years of bleeding, it is remarkable how little we know but the whole process even now. 

Wendy Mesley  1:35  
Yeah, but maybe you're an expert like so I'm gonna ask you what, where,where does the blood come from? 

Maureen Holloway  1:41  
Well, it is God making a nest for a baby.

Wendy Mesley  1:44  
I knew there would be an answer like that one. Okay, here's another one. What about menstrual blood is is it the same as regular blood? 

Maureen Holloway  1:52  
No, no, no. If you've seen it and the commercials. menstrual blood is blue. It's bright blue.

Wendy Mesley  1:58  
Yeah, well, my mind's blank. Okay, so maybe not me here. Here's another one. What about cramps? Is there a reason for cramps?

Maureen Holloway  2:09  
Yes, cramps are designed to get you out of gym class. So you have cramps to get out of gym class. I think our point here is that we are to educated women with 40 years of bleeding. 80 years, between the two of us not to mention three babies, two from you, one for you and we don't know, we don't really know very much about the whole process. 

Wendy Mesley  2:30  
Well, thank goodness, we're not alone. We have Dr. Jen Gunter. She has been called the internet's resident gynecologist. We call her a gyno- guru, which sort of sounds like a dinosaur, but she's not. 

Maureen Holloway  2:41  
Hardly. 

Wendy Mesley  2:42  
She's a fierce advocate for women's health. She's written several books about the things that women's bodies do. She wrote the Vagina Bible of the menopause manifesto and now her latest book is simply called Blood which is blue, right?

Maureen Holloway  2:58  
No.

From the day we started this podcast, people have been asking us to get Dr. Jenn Gunter on as a guest. She has been recommended more than anybody else and so we are so happy that she could join us to talk about a subject that remains steeped in ignorance and taboo but no more. No more.

Wendy Mesley  3:23  
Yeah, I feel fresh and confident already. What about you? 

Maureen Holloway  3:27  
Hi, Jen. 

Wendy Mesley  3:28  
Hi, Jen. Hi.

Dr. Jen Gunter  3:30  
Hello. Yes, we all feeling fresh and confident.

Maureen Holloway  3:34  
Fresh and ready to do any sports activity. Also wearing white pants.

Dr. Jen Gunter  3:38  
Yeah or running through a field of flowers. 

Wendy Mesley  3:40  
Yeah, because we all we're modern women. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  3:42  
No, but oh my god, those were the yeah.

Maureen Holloway  3:44  
I don't think they made the belts anymore.

Dr. Jen Gunter  3:47  
No, no, no. They're all adhesives. I sort of started right when the belt era had ended. So I didn't have belts but I was like on the cusp. 

Maureen Holloway  3:57  
You know what we'd like to do with so we'd like to keep you for days because there are so many questions, but we thought we'd start with some of the myths that you that you bust and one of the ones that surprised me even at my decrepitude at this age is that there's no such thing as a hymen or there is but there's no physical proof of virginity and we both of us found that shocking. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  4:19  
Yeah, it's the biggest scam it's like the original sin scam. So the hymen is named after the Greek god of marriage. So that kind of puts it out there, but yeah, so there's no like freshness steel, there's no tissue that breaks you know, when you're an infant, um, there is a you know, kind of a hymen that's there and while we don't actually know what the purpose truly is, my theory is it's most likely to keep things out of the infant vagina, which is very sensitive right? It would make sense you get smashed with stool and all you know, it makes sense to have a have something there it's a protection but as you grow it kind of disappears and as you get estrogen exposed, you know, once you start you know men's reading it just you know kind of flattens out. Some people have kind of more tissue. Some people have less, but you know, there's no way to tell if someone has been sexually active or based on looking at their vagina, you know, anything like that. It's a yeah.

Wendy Mesley  5:15  
So why don't people tell us because I was so appalled that there wasn't like blood on the sheets after noon, the first time I did it. 

Maureen Holloway  5:21  
Your first time. 

Wendy Mesley  5:22  
Most people don't. 

Maureen Holloway  5:23  
You know that Princess Diana before she married Charles way back in the day, and she had to be a virgin. Apparently, she underwent a physical exam to determine that she was a virgin and you're just saying that was a crock?

Dr. Jen Gunter  5:37  
Yeah, it's just like all made up. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, I've no idea what they were checking for. You know, maybe she just said to them, I haven't had sex. And maybe she had some lovely gynecologist who was like, great. Let me just tick that box. So most women don't leave their first time of intercourse. So then if you think about all these cultures and religions that make this big deal about having blood on the sheets, what they're expecting is sexual trauma. 

Maureen Holloway  6:02  
Wow. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  6:03  
Right. So you know, if you're having sexual trauma, absolutely. You know, you might have tearing, you might have, you know, you're terrified. You think about these young 13 year old girls like married off to some disgusting 16 year old, and so they were terrified. And so you know, it would feel tight because they were terrified and clenched and dry and protecting themselves right. And so, you know, there's never yeah, it's it's hymen. I always tell people, the hymans like baby teeth, you know, with something you had years ago, that you don't have now, and it's become this awful thing, and it's just isn't a thing at all. And so yeah, it scares girls from using tampons. It scares girls from having sex. And it distills your whole value down to whether or not a penis has been in your vagina. It's It's so awful and so patriarchal. 

Wendy Mesley  6:54  
I love that you called the vagina. Can we say that word even though I think your your first book was was banned? Well, I remember I mean, Mo and I both had breast cancer and saying the word whereas 20 years ago was like, the end of the world- 

Maureen Holloway  7:07  
On the air, certainly, yeah. 

Wendy Mesley  7:09  
And then you wrote the book called The vagina Bible, but I find it I find it fascinating that like, why, why does blood have to be blue? Why? Why are we so afraid of, of all of the things that you say are fine.

Maureen Holloway  7:21  
Just let's let's phrase that the fact that people think menstrual blood is different than regular blood?

Wendy Mesley  7:28  
And it's not, is it?

Dr. Jen Gunter  7:29  
No, it's just blood. If you look at hormone levels, and menstrual blood is the same as the blood coming out of your arm. It's literally just blood, it's what happens is the lining of the enemy atrium peels away. And just like if you peel off the top layer of skin, the blood vessels below bleed, and they're that bleeding helps to push that endometrium out. So you know, so it can get out and then as the endometrium peels away, there's bleeding, and then that has to repair and so you know, menstrual blood is a combination of the lining of the uterus and blood that's come out of the arteries in your uterus. And that's what it is and it's become this whole thing. You know, you can't talk about menstruation because we talk about menstruation that means that that you're talking about the fact that girls can get pregnant. And obviously, a girl shouldn't be thinking about her vagina until she's married to the man and so it's all related to purity culture, yeah and the idea that, you know, I think the patriarchy knows that knowledge is power. If you think about if no young girls were terrified about the hymen, well, that takes away a big weapon of control, doesn't it?

Wendy Mesley  8:35  
You've busted a lot of myths. So let's look at another one. Another one is, I mean, we're talking about blood being red and vaginas being like normal and, and that vaginas are self cleaning ovens. So we don't need any of like, all of these products that make us feel fresh and confident. 

Maureen Holloway  8:52  
Douches. 

Wendy Mesley  8:52  
Yeah, they're, they're the supplements your anti supplement.

Dr. Jen Gunter  8:55  
Well douches are different. So dishes are evil and harmful, and they're damaging to your vagina. You don't need to do any cleaning inside. You don't need specialized quote unquote, feminine products. You know, cleaning the vulva is no more challenging than cleaning the scrotum you know? So just a body part just use a gentle cleanser, unscented. Don't waste your money on anything so called feminine and then about supplements yeah, so supplements are untested, unregulated pharmaceuticals, and that's how people should think about them. And so when you call them what they really are, it makes them sound a lot different. And the literature for most of them is abysmal. And they're they're a growing cause of liver failure and we see all the time ramifications that people end up taking things that have been adulterated, you know, with lead or with anabolic steroids or with estrogen that you don't you literally don't know what you're taking. So there's a lot of concern there and so, while there definitely are some people who may need to take a vitamin So for example, if if you're a vegetarian or vegan, you probably need to take a B 12 supplement, because B 12 basically comes from animal products. So if you're not eating animal products, get your B12 from somewhere else. If you're someone who has difficulty getting an iron in your diet, while you might need to take some iron, but apart from supplementing a specific like nutritional deficiency, or you know, if you live in Canada, you might need to take a vitamin D supplement, you know, because you're not going outside in, you know, for half the year or you're minus 35. Right now in Calgary, no one's getting exposed to the sun today, you know, so apart from those, but you know, we also have evidence to support those things. So, you know, I think that that supplements are, they're completely unregulated, and you don't know what you're taking. And don't you deserve to know that accuracy? Don't you deserve to know good quality science? Certainly the people selling the supplements are making enough money.

Maureen Holloway  10:57  
Here's here's, uh, okay. I always thought that the moon had an effect on your cycle, the moon and the tides and misfits romantic notion, isn't it? But apparently it doesn't.

Dr. Jen Gunter  11:09  
No, no, it doesn't. I mean, because obviously, if it did, everybody would have been straight at the same time, just like the tides happen at the same time, right? 

Maureen Holloway  11:16  
That's it's all part of the same myth and I to this day, Jen, to this day, I believe, if we didn't, you know, mess about with our bodies and take different hormones and so on, that all women would lead at the same time. And it had something to do with the pull of the moon and the tides and do this day, I was this age when I found out.

Wendy Mesley  11:34  
But don't we synchronize? I think that's a myth that you must do is that all of all women-

Dr. Jen Gunter  11:38  
And it's a patriarchal myth, because it means then women are like animals. Yeah. Right. I mean, sure, like in a herd of animals yeah. So it's not no, I mean, it would make also be really bad evolutionarily for everybody to get pregnant at the same time right? Like, what if there was, what if there was a massive famine? then six months later, okay, all those pregnancies, sorry, done, we're done. Makes sense that things should be spaced out and random. Because, you know, there could be three months of absolute famine, there could be a massive flood there, there's going to be times when food is scarce for children. And so, you know, having it all come randomly seems to would seem to be a most efficient way to deal with the randomness of all the things that happen, you can't kind of rely on it. Because also too, if you think about it, if if that were really the case, well, then we would be like animals, we would reproduce seasonally, right? Like it would make sense that oh, we you know, spring would be lambing season spring would be you know, baby season, right. 

Maureen Holloway  12:40  
It is for different reasons, because I think a lot of women like to have the summer off with but yeah, it's like lambing season.

Wendy Mesley  12:47  
What about a jade egg shoved up the vagina? I mean-

Maureen Holloway  12:51  
 Yeah, talk about myths. 

Wendy Mesley  12:52  
Kind of famous for taking on  for taking on Gwenyth Paltrow, but there's a lot of people selling stuff for a lot of money.

Dr. Jen Gunter  12:58  
Yeah, myths, you know, they speak to us in different ways for different reasons. I mean, some of it's because people don't have the knowledge. Some of it is because people have been dismissed by medical society by medicine. And some of it's because people have really fallen into rabbit hole conspiracy theories, that everything that's made from a pharmaceutical company or from a doctor is harmful and I think that's a really important thing to emphasize. So wellness, this whole world of supplements, world of sort of anti science, really is driven by conspiracy theories, there's a ton of overlap and in fact, the more conspiracy theories you believe, the more likely you are to buy supplements. 

Maureen Holloway  13:35  
Wow. I mean, not to get bogged down with Gwyneth, you yourself did confront that directly. I mean, I don't want to talk about Gwyneth Paltrow per se, I think her intentions are good. And I think, you know, sure, there's conspiracy, and there's a way of making money, but there are other people, just women who are just trying to make sense and haven't been given the information. And then this is one of the reasons why your books, and your and your articles and magazines that you write for. So welcome, is because there's it's 2024 and nobody has really wanted to address this. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  14:12  
Yeah, I mean, I think there's huge gaps and I would push back and say, I don't believe she has any good intentions. I mean, she promoted an article on her site, that bras cause breast cancer. 

Maureen Holloway  14:22  
Wow. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  14:23  
Do you think somebody with good intentions would promote that or someone looking for attention? 

Maureen Holloway  14:26  
Oh, Gwyneth. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  14:27  
Right? And that, I mean, that's how I found out about her in this whole group thing was I got all these messages from women asking me if that was true. I mean, what kind of an awful person does that what an awful person.

Wendy Mesley  14:40  
Well, I think we could all make a lot of money if we were into selling supplements or into telling people that that's something that women wear everyday like a bra was a bad thing. I think there is a lot of money to be made. So yeah, I think skincare supplements I think Mo, you and I you know we should sign up. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  14:56  
Yeah, I mean, it's it's really the if your point if you want to make money than lies are a great way to do it. And medical misinformation is a great way to do it. Because when you're not bound by the truth, you can say whatever you want. I mean, I could go to a supplement company and ask them to make me a brand of supplements. And I could call it Dr. Jen's vaginal supplements, and tell you that it would balance your pH and help you like to bacilli, and use all kinds of fancy words. And as long as I didn't say it could treat a specific medical condition. I'm not breaking any laws. 

Maureen Holloway  15:28  
And you could be a gazillionaire. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  15:30  
But ethics, right? So. 

Maureen Holloway  15:32  
Ethics. 

Wendy Mesley  15:33  
But it's different for women, right? Like, and you talk a lot about this, and all of your books about how erectile dysfunction is just like two people sitting in a bathtub holding hands, and everything's great and there's all of the science and all of these tests and all of these wonderful solutions for male problems and yet women's problems, you know, it's got to be blue blood, and they can't be talked about and people still, like all of us still believe that it's the moon or that?

Maureen Holloway  15:59  
Not all of this, I don't anymore.

Wendy Mesley  16:02  
The hymen you know, like where is the blood on the sheets? Like, why why is it treated this way? 

Dr. Jen Gunter  16:08  
Yeah, I mean, I've I've yet to actually speak to someone, like a personal friend, or, you know, someone who's talked about it that told me that they had bleeding the first time at sex. So- 

Maureen Holloway  16:17  
Yah, same come to think of it. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  16:19  
I mean, it's something like 10%. And it's probably those 10% how, you know, we're very scared, maybe they have a condition called vaginismis, tearing, you know, so, basically, it's in line with what we would think that, you know, because about five to 10% of the population can have pain with sex, right? So if you think about it, from that standpoint, that people who are having that, you know, they've either had a sexual trauma, or they have no maybe really tight muscles and have vaginismus and cause tissue trauma, trying to push it in, push the penis and so, so yes, all these myths are very harmful. And they, but unfortunately, you know, myths sell and they're crazy. They're fantastical, and the human body is complex and if you haven't learnt a lot of things, then you know, these things sound great. I mean, who doesn't want a magic wand?

Maureen Holloway  17:06  
Preferably one that doesn't cause you to bleed. Okay. So what is, I mean, I hate asking what normal is, but there are parameters of normalcy, what is a normal period?

Dr. Jen Gunter  17:17  
Yeah, so typical period, like, I think I agree with you, I say using the word normal is like, well, then if you're not in that, is there something wrong with you. So, you know, typical period can last about anywhere up to consider the you know, up to seven days is pretty typical. You shouldn't be soaking your clothes, if you're soaking your clothes, if you're having to change your pattern tampon, you know, every hour, you know, for more than a couple hours, if you're passing clots larger than a size of a quarter, those are things that we want to know about a typical menstrual cycle, you know, is anywhere, you know, depending on the sort of the guidelines that you use anywhere between sort of, like 21 and 31 days, or 24 to 34. You know, there's, it just depends on how the studies were done. But I think the bigger thing is that there's a normal fluctuation cycle to cycle. So one cycle might be 24 days, and one cycle might be 28 days, and once I call might be 29 days. So this idea that it's clock that's perfect, isn't true. So knowing that this is kind of within the boundary of normal, and so if you're having, you know, periods that are spacing out more than that, if you're having them more often, if you're having bleeding between periods, if you're having periods that are heavier, those are things that we want to know about.

Wendy Mesley  18:27  
I love that you address so many words. I mean, we're now we're now able to say vagina, we're now able to say breast, but you say vulva and and like that's a word that that I don't think is in common usage yet. So it's, it's just really interesting that you are, I'm sure you're not the only one. There are a lot of women gynecologist who talk about problems that happen to women. That I don't know, maybe, maybe it's obvious why. Because with patriarchy, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  18:59  
Yeah, I mean, I think it's the patriarchy. I mean, seriously, if you don't know about your body, then that really puts you at a disadvantage, doesn't it? You know, I think many women certainly have, you know, my generation, and anybody before me, and probably a few people since me, you know, it's this idea that men are the great sexual people and we're going to learn how to have sex from men, you know, which I would say would be like, the worst person to learn how to have sex from would be probably an 18 year old man.

Maureen Holloway  19:28  
Right well, at least it'd be over quickly 

Dr. Jen Gunter  19:30  
Yeah. 

Maureen Holloway  19:31  
The first time.

Dr. Jen Gunter  19:32  
I think it's all related to that that you know that again, talking about a woman's body mean she's gonna go out and you know, I don't know like ruin society have ruined herself, you know, become this fallen woman that's all related to that.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  19:49  
The Women Of Ill Repute. 

Maureen Holloway  19:52  
More practically and again, we could keep you for hours or and we're just going to, you know, tell people get the book, because it'll answer all your question and then some but tampons, cups pads wings, what are, in your opinion, the best modern menstrual products to use?

Dr. Jen Gunter  20:08  
The ones you like, the ones you like the ones you can afford, they all have advantages and disadvantages. And you know, it's everybody's different. You know, you know how different people like different things, how they feel on their skin, different tastes of different things. You know, it's the same with the vagina. Some people are like, I hate the way that feels, or I like the way that feels. I think the more options the better. 

Maureen Holloway  20:28  
But not the crocheted tampons.

Dr. Jen Gunter  20:33  
Don't use anything from gyno-Etsy, ya know, I mean, and there's like real potential harm there because, you know, we don't know what that could do to the ecosystem. We don't know what could happen with toxic shock syndrome. So I think it's like really important that people understand that. I'm sure that people out there selling homemade crochet tampons are not tools of the patriarchy trying to hurt you. They just don't know. But yeah, you shouldn't be using those.

Wendy Mesley  20:58  
It's really interesting that you take on naturopaths and homeopathy and like not just goop, not just Gwyneth Paltrow, but like you're not afraid of of controversy here. You're like, no, you you actually do not, you're not a real doctor.

Dr. Jen Gunter  21:13  
I don't think it's controversial to say that a naturopath has inferior training to a medical doctor or an osteopathic doctor, it's the truth. It's not it shouldn't be controversial. When you have a whole field of medicine that teaches homeopathy is real, something that doesn't fit in with the laws of physics. That's problematic. And we're seeing this emergence of of more alternative medicine because of some issues with medicine, but also in Canada with systemic underfunding. I mean, you know, if you don't have enough trainees coming through, you don't have enough people. If you're going to be treating family doctors like garbage? Well, of course, they're going to be leaving, you know, why would somebody work that hard? Take on medical debt, you know, and then, and then be told that, you know, whatever, they're told these awful things by different depends on the province, I think that you're in, right, how disrespected that you get. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's a big problem. And I just, you know, I think that we need more access to good evidence based medicine we need when doctors have to see 30 or 40 patients and a half day, because they're so overwhelmed. How can they have time to speak with anyone?

Wendy Mesley  22:22  
Well, it's not just Etsy, it's right. You go into so many pharmacies these days, and there's a whole section of homeopathy. You go to France, and it's all homeopathy. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  22:31  
Yeah. I mean, how do you think they you know, they make money? How, why is the substance that's more dilute the same price as the substance that's less dilute with homeopathy? What's up with that? So yeah, because it makes money. I mean, you know, pharmacies, they make money off of having these supplements and markup is crazy. It's ridiculous. You know, there's a, there's a little, you know, natural grocery store close to where I live and I don't go there very often, because, like, really expensive, but sometimes you got to pop in, and I always walk through their, like, you know, their supplement aisle, and it's just, you know, Clover teeth Berry, or, you know, what all this stuff and it's like, 29.99 39.99, like, that's a lot of money. And these people are taking this every single month, you know, there's plenty of unfortunately, physicians also sort of, you know, dipping their toe into this as well and offering so called, you know, functional medicine practice, which is such a recognized term. 

Maureen Holloway  23:28  
So, I have another practical quote, I have a lot this is no longer you know, asking truly asking for a friend, because I'm past the point where this is of concern to me, but I have nieces and daughters in law and so on. But I know several women who use hormonal birth control to skip their periods if they're, you know, going on a vacation, or if they're in a new sexual relationship, or what, what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Jen Gunter  23:49  
Sure. It's great. Absolutely. There's no reason to have a period on the pill. There's, if you're taking the pill continuously, and you don't get a period, it just means there's nothing there to come out. So it's not so it's not like there's some like build up that's happening. It just, there's nothing there. So, so yeah, why have a period? I mean, better living through chemistry. 

Maureen Holloway  24:08  
Wow. See this is interesting. I've, again, again, playing on the fact that we have no knowledge, but if so, little knowledge, I always thought that you were screwing around with your hormones if you did that. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  24:17  
No, the very original pill studies did not have people having periods. So I had the hormones every day and what happened was, and it's people need to read about it in the book, because it's a lot more complex than than the summary that I'm going to give. But basically, the the women were worried that they were pregnant, because they're just so now think about it. This is a time where you can't get abortion. This is a time where being you know, pregnant and not married, massive deal. Many of them were actually hoping to get pregnant because they they were initially told that the pill might help with fertility, you're on it for a while and then stop it and it might help with fertility. So they were anxious. They were hoping that they were pregnant. So the whole withdrawal bleed came about out of taking away that fear of being pregnant supposedly.

Wendy Mesley  25:07  
You have two sons. They're what in their 20s now. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  25:11  
They're 20. 

Wendy Mesley  25:12  
Like you're addressing all kinds of controversies and Roe vs. Wade, you had a very strong opinion on, you've always had a very strong opinion on on a pro choice and that abortion is for women who want to have an abortion. How do your sons feel about that? They're they're of an age now where one assumes that, you know, they they know a few things- 

Maureen Holloway  25:32  
Have opinions. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  25:34  
Oh, yeah. yeah, they, I mean, they're, they're very pro choice. My kids, they're very pro vaccine. Years ago, when I was asking them, you know, about, like, if they were dating anybody, and I was like, well, just make sure like, when you start dating, you need to ask if that person's had the HPV vaccine. And one of them said to me, as if I date someone who was anti vaxxer.

Maureen Holloway  25:56  
It must be interesting, though, they probably know a lot more than the average 20 year old. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  26:01  
So one is less interested in the subject matter, but he's actually he wants to be a writer so he's more interested in the like, writing aspect of it and then my son, who's at the University of Ottawa, loves that he knows more than his girlfriend's about the menstrual cycle and about reproduction and you know, I'm always getting texts, like my friend wants to know this, or, you know, and his joke is, he's very openly gay and he calls himself a platinum gay because he's never touched a vagina. He was born by C section and so and that as a platinum gay, he knows more than lots of women do about the menstrual cycle? 

Maureen Holloway  26:35  
Wow. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  26:37  
Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's great. 

Maureen Holloway  26:40  
It is, of course, why should it just be a female preoccupation? Or, I mean, it affects all of us no matter? 

Dr. Jen Gunter  26:48  
Well, yeah. I mean, like, we wouldn't have the big brains that we have, if we didn't have a menstrual cycle, that the whole thing is related to that. So if you think about it, we wouldn't have everything that we have if we were not menstraters right. So you know, so because we need this big placenta, to give us all this oxygen, to get this big brain. And to handle a big placenta, you need to have a really thick uterine lining that can handle it. Otherwise, it's gonna grow through and cause all kinds of problems. So the the decidua, the that's this is the tissue that actually comes out with a menstruation is kind of the scaffold for the placenta, if you will. And so also the lining of the uterus is part of sensing abnormal embryos, because, you know, we've all heard that like, 70% of early pregnancies, you know, miscarry. And yeah, humans have a very high rate of genetic malformations and so that's one way that we've helped been part of our evolution. It's given us big brains and the building walk into move in other ways. But but you know, we also have an endometrium, then that that can sense some of those abnormalities and make sure that those you know those clearly abnormal embryos don't go anywhere, which I know it can be really hard, I think for people who've had recurrent miscarriages to hear that. And I don't talk about this obviously, in an evolutionary way. But, so if you think about we have everything we are because of you know, menstruation has allowed us to evolve in a certain way. 

Wendy Mesley  28:18  
It's fascinating. My daughter, Maureen has a number of daughters in law, I have a daughter, they're in their 20s. And, and it's fascinating because they're all like dying to read your book, whether it's about endometriosis, or fibroids or anemia, or bleeding or polyps or clotting or cancer. I wrote it all down. It's  unbelievable and a lot of the stuff we just don't know. So it's, I'm very grateful. I think Maureen was going to say that-

Maureen Holloway  28:46  
It should be required, it should be handed out everywhere, you know, in high schools, and it shouldn't be but the thing is, it's not a textbook. This is what I love about it. It's really accessible. You're funny, you know it very much. So what I wanted to ask to add to to Wendy's observation is like. You are the mother of twins. You are a you're a practicing OBGYN, and you're writer for all sorts of like, when do you find the time, the podcast? What do you find the time.

Wendy Mesley  29:17  
Yeah.

Dr. Jen Gunter  29:18  
Yeah, well, I just about killed myself writing this book, I have to say, because this was like, more in depth, a lot more like basic physiology and things like that. And then not only making sure that I understood it correctly, but trying to distill these really complex things down into something that's understandable, but doesn't also lose the important points with challenging a lot of brainpower. So yeah, I mean, I so it was hard. I mean, I work in the office now three and a half days a week so I you know, have a day and a half a week. Well, two and a half days as you write on the weekends to to do writing, but yeah, it's, it was it was something.

Wendy Mesley  29:57  
I love that in the the epilogue or the acknowledgments, I guess it's called at the end, you basically and it's the first time I've seen it, and I thought it was great. And you said, well, I would like to acknowledge me. 

Maureen Holloway  30:08  
First of all, yeah, why not? 

Wendy Mesley  30:10  
Because it was a lot of work to write it.

Dr. Jen Gunter  30:13  
It really was and, you know, I was thinking there, we were trying to write the acknowledgments. And I was just like, I didn't know how any other way to start it. And I just thought you just did a really big fucking thing. And we you should pat yourself on the back for that. And I don't I think as women, we don't pat ourselves on the back as much as we should. Man, I did a job well done. This was a big fucking thing damn it and you know what we, I think we also like society, once it's not be like, Hey, you should be respecting me. You know, we shouldn't be doing that. More. Like, I'd love to see more women saying, yeah, the first person I want to thank is me. You know, I'm like, the little red hen. I did it all.

Maureen Holloway  30:51  
Hey, do you still have line of shoes at fluevog that we're gonna do? What did they call the Dr. Jen or Dr. Gunther?

Dr. Jen Gunter  30:58  
They're called the Dr. Gunthers yeah and they come in three different color ways that was honestly, that's probably one of the highlights of my professional career. Because, you know, I'm a shoe lover, I love blue gods. And they're so comfortable and it was really great. You know that, you know, a percentage of the sales went to support Moon Time Sisters, which they, they work to get menstrual products available to people up north, because it's absolutely insane. And I mean, if anybody who has any governmental poll is listening to this, it is wrong, that someone who meant straights who lives in Yellowknife, or who lives in Churchill, Manitoba, should have to pay more for their menstrual products and somebody who lives in Winnipeg or Toronto or Vancouver, they should be the same price everywhere in the country. And the government should pay that whatever the difference is, the transportation costs, it's just not fair.

Wendy Mesley  31:53  
Well, and everyone benefits, right? There wouldn't be any babies.

Dr. Jen Gunter  31:57  
Every single person benefits as a collective from the menstrual cycle and so I mean, I think we can also say, Look, people should be paying more for toilet paper, either, I'd be on board with that, too. Or we should make the day's available for everybody, you know, whatever it is, but, but I just think that the half of the population that meant straights is the half that's more likely to be financially disadvantaged, right? And so, if we want to have true equity, then we should have menstrual products being the same price, they should set a price, you know, I don't know if they still set a price for milk, or you know, it can't cost more than something that used to be buy that milk and bread used to have to be a certain price. And I don't know if that's the case anymore. But and you know, and I think also then that would help especially with all these like overpriced, useless organic products that don't offer anything special. If people couldn't make a profit off of that that would actually change their availability. 

Maureen Holloway  32:52  
And let's call the menstrual products shall we? I was just I was in shoppers. I don't mind saying this in the aisle where the menstrual products are sold. It's called feminine paper.

Dr. Jen Gunter  33:03  
Yeah, I mean, like, seriously, change it. It's ridiculous. It's not it's not to do with feminine like, you can say toilet like if you like it's not feminine paper, their menstrual products. Like there's cups, there's pads or tampons. First of all, they're not paper and secondly, what's wrong with the word menstruation? You know, I mean, like, seriously, it's a bodily function.

Maureen Holloway  33:27  
It's even got the word men in it. We can all share this word.

Dr. Jen Gunter  33:30  
Although is its menses is not. Yeah, it's not from men. People always ask that but yeah, yeah, I just think it's ridiculous. Like how sophomoric are we that we can't say the word menstrual products? 

Wendy Mesley  33:42  
So are you a Canadian? Are you still Canadian? I know you. You were born in Winnipeg and you went to uni? Yeah, but now you live down there so.

Dr. Jen Gunter  33:50  
I do. I live down here. But But I am so Canadian so very much Canadian. And we are looking at moving back. 

Wendy Mesley  33:56  
Oh. 

Dr. Jen Gunter  33:57  
So in the next. You know, I've got a couple of years to go before before I can retire for my work down here. But yeah, I think once once I retire, we're looking to to move back to Canada.

Maureen Holloway  34:07  
Well, we're lucky to have you. We're proud of you. I speak for the nation, as always.

Wendy Mesley  34:12  
Or at least half of it.

Maureen Holloway  34:13  
At least half of it. And the book is called Blood. It's pretty easy to figure out there all of your books I think that you know, collect them all. The Vagina Bible, the Menopause Myth. There's one on preemies because your boys were preemies.

Dr. Jen Gunter  34:29  
Yeah, the the Preemie Primer, although it's probably I'll be honest, it's probably out of date now because I was written in 2010. And you know, we're, you know, but it's you want to buy it, there's still good information in there. But you know, it was up to date and 2010 and now we're 2023 so.

Maureen Holloway  34:42  
This is hot off the press the press called Blood by Dr. Jen Gunter, and we're just really glad that you joined us. 

Wendy Mesley  34:48  
Yeah, so glad. So happy. Thank you.

Dr. Jen Gunter  34:50  
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Maureen Holloway  34:56  
Okay, you want to hear the most embarrassing that ever happened to me? The top three, embarrassing things that ever happened to me, I think we're period related.

Wendy Mesley  35:03  
 Okay, so yeah, I want to hear. 

Maureen Holloway  35:05  
Okay, so because we live lives of shame, or there's no need to, but that's how it was, and probably still is. So I think I just got my period, I think I was about 13. So maybe it had it once or twice, and it was sailing camp and on the last day of sailing camp, everybody gets thrown in the water, it's so much fun. And we're all wearing white because they're a little sailing uniforms were white shorts in a white t shirt and thing here already knowing where this is going and so I got thrown in the water and you know, all the cute boys who want to be thrown in the water by the cute boys and ended up sitting afterwards soaking wet, and it was sitting on a hull of a boat, white overturned on the ground, and I was sitting on the top of it. And of course, I started leaking, but it didn't know it. And I'm soaking wet and there was just streams of pink reading out from me and all these other kids were sending out I can't even telling you this all these many years later, have all these other kids were sitting on the boat and somebody turned around what ooh, what's that?

Wendy Mesley  36:02  
How did you get back to the cabin? Or how did you change you just stay there forever?

Maureen Holloway  36:07  
I ran into the woods, no, I jumped in the lack and swam to New York. No I ran into the into the girls room. I was just so ashamed. so ashamed. And then another girl I think an older teenager came in and said, hey, don't worry, you know I'll get you I'll get you some dry clothes and and but I was mortified and cried myself sick or waited till everybody had left and then I went home.

Wendy Mesley  36:32  
But it is still the and I think that's why I love talking to Jen Gunter is that she says don't be ashamed like, oh, the this whole podcast is about I think.

Maureen Holloway  36:42  
It would still be embarrassing.

Wendy Mesley  36:43  
I know. But yeah- 

Maureen Holloway  36:44  
It's embarrassing. 

Wendy Mesley  36:45  
But it shouldn't be the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to you and your life and yet it was and and and I think that there are so many women who could tell that story because we're all we're all leaky. And that's just what happens. 

Maureen Holloway  36:59  
Yeah, I know. And it's no big deal. And since then, I mean, I've had guests and so on who have stayed overnight and doing the sheets and or you know if someone got so sorry it's and of course my response was get out of my house you husee. No it wasn't.

Wendy Mesley  37:16  
Well, there's other words I looked them up but it's it's not that funny, but I do find it fascinating though, that there was just so much to ask her like she's a big booster of the bill. She's a big booster of choice. She's a big booster of pre programmed advocates about dealing with controversy. I just I find that I find that fascinating. We didn't spend that much time talking about the medical patriarchy and and the blue blood and the toxic and the leaky women but yeah, it goes on forever.

Maureen Holloway  37:46  
It goes on forever and this book is a Bible for that and and as I've said and I mean it sincerely I'm going to pass this on to you all to any woman that's bleeding.

Wendy Mesley  37:55  
Or bleeding women I think you call it.

Maureen Holloway  37:56  
Every bleeding woman should have a copy of this book because it will reassure you and educate you and we need more of that so there we go. Dr. Jen Gunter a dream come true for women of ill repute.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  38:11  
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.