Hilary MacMillan: Ahead of the Curve

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women of Ill Repute. With your hosts Wendy Mesley. And Maureen Holloway.

Wendy Mesley  0:07  
Hey, Maureen so let's talk about fashion. You like fashion.

Maureen Holloway  0:11  
Yeah, you do too. We like fashion. We don't not like fashion.

Wendy Mesley  0:15  
Well, no, I like- I actually like fashion a lot. I wear a lot of jeans in the county, but yeah.

Maureen Holloway  0:22  
There was a time for years and years where you had a clothing allowance when you worked for the corporation.

Wendy Mesley  0:28  
Oh, that's supposed to be a secret. A top top top secret. I mean, all anchors- well, most anchors- probably get a clothing allowance, but but now I have no real excuse to dress up anymore. So there's- so there's all this stuff. 

Maureen Holloway  0:40  
We still like the idea, and fashion- I love it. But I'm also aware it's a political thing. It can enslave people, especially women, if unless you're- if you're not a certain size or or age, it's not easy. It's not available to everyone.

Wendy Mesley  0:56  
Particularly these days with fast fashion. And everyone's got these huge walk in closets and it's- well, people who can afford them. It's ridiculous. It's an environmental issue as well. A lot of clothing ends up in landfills.

Maureen Holloway  1:07  
Not to mention it can be cruel. You look at fur and feathers. And now there's a whole movement against any- like vegan clothing. No, no, no, no wool.

Wendy Mesley  1:18  
I have to deal with the wool issue. I'm trying to think of what my sweater is today. I think it's made out of plastic. But we're going to be talking to Hilary McMillan. She's our guest today. And she's sensitive to all of this. But wool. Is wool an issue? 

Maureen Holloway  1:32  
Yes wool is an issue because you got to scrape it off a sheep. Yes, since 2016-  this is what I know about sheep shearing. Since 2016, Hilary McMillan designs have been cruelty free, no fur, no feathers, no wool, no silk, and inclusive in terms of size, ranging from extra small to quadruple extra large.

Wendy Mesley  1:54  
She's done all kinds of things. She even launched a collection with Barbie which I know we're on different sides of the fence on Barbie, but we can talk about that. But she launched this collection of jackets and totes with slogans saying equal pay, don't tell me to smile, all kinds of sort of feminista stuff.

Maureen Holloway  2:10  
Can fashion be feminist? Can it be cruelty free? Can it be inclusive and reasonably priced? Most importantly, still look good? Hilary MacMillan. 

Hi Hilary.

So Hilary, can you be all things to all people?

Hilary MacMillan  2:30  
I don't think you can be all things to all people. But we're trying our best over here to do all the things that our brand hopes to achieve.

Wendy Mesley  2:37  
So tell us about that. I mean, you're vegan, you're cruelty free, you're environmental, you're a feminist, you're everything. But what does it mean for you? Like what- describe your line to us.

Hilary MacMillan  2:48  
So those are like a bunch of really buzzy words. At the- really at the root of it. We're trying to make contemporary women's clothing that makes women feel good in their outfits for a larger size range. That's kind of the brand ethos of what we are. And then you know, within different categories of that we are a vegan company. And yeah, so really we're just trying to make like exciting clothing for more women and more sizes.

Maureen Holloway  3:11  
Was it a personal revelation for you, or a sort of epiphany, come to Jesus moment where you said, You know what, that cow is so adorable, I can't imagine killing it and wearing its skin on my feet.

Hilary MacMillan  3:23  
So I grew up mostly in a vegetarian household. So I haven't eaten a lot of meat or really been exposed to a lot of meat. My family isn't vegetarian anymore, but that's how I was brought up. So I've been vegetarian for a really long time since I was in grade 10. And then on and off, gone vegan, here and there done stints of like five years. And when I first started the brand, you'll be Canada, we're all about outerwear, we're all about like for line hoods. And when I first started, I was very much using leather and fur especially in like accessories or in like little pieces on the clothing. And I was cutting skins and cutting up fur and going to these places and buying these pelts and stuff. And I just didn't think that it like sit well with me. It also didn't make sense for- my brand is very much a personal reflection of who I am, you know, has my name and it is, you know, so put up by me and I'm such the face of it, that it just didn't- it didn't resonate with me. And so we transitioned over into being a vegan brand. It took years because you know, you have to find wool substitutes, you have to find substitutes for leather. Back in 2016 is when we launched it, but we started developing it like 2015, 2014, and there wasn't so many good options. Like the vegan leather space has gotten way bigger now and there's alternatives like they're going to plant based leathers as well. But back then it was sparse, and faux fur was awful, like it was plasticky and I don't know if you guys remember, it was just not a very good like tactile fabric. And so took some time and, you know, finding silk alternatives for blouses and all these things, and there are some great options and some great, you know, natural fibers to use and some great things that you can use as a substitute for animal products. It's definitely one of our brand ethos, but it's no- we don't find that people are coming to us necessarily because we're vegan. It's kind of like an add on. But it's more like we make high quality things with high quality fabrications. And so you know, it's a perk that we're vegan now I think.

Wendy Mesley  5:20  
I want to talk about the plus sizes part of it in a second. But, but the vegan thing I find really interesting, because I think there are more and more people who are becoming, you know, vegetarians or vegans or, or whatever. But I just wonder like, will we look back- because I still eat a little bit of meat and I still wear leather shoes, and I still wear wool sweaters. Which I think I confessed to earlier. But like, will we look back? Like I'm so curious about- I look at the cows, and I think they're just stupid, so we're allowed to eat them. But is that stupid? Like, like, will we all look back on this someday and go, what on earth were we thinking that we could actually kill an animal and eat it?

Hilary MacMillan  6:02  
I have no judgment, I think everyone's life is their life. And people choose to do what they want to do. Obviously, my personal life is the way I live it, I think that kind of what you're talking about is like speciesism. So like, this is a huge kind of conversation in this space is that like, as human beings, we feel like we have the right to kill animals or that like they're subservient to us or that like they're put on the earth for us to eat. And I think if you kind of switch your mindset about how you think about animals and how you think about, you know, farm animals specifically, like we obviously have, uh, you know, we prioritize certain animals of others, like, you wouldn't consider eating dog or a cat, because that's a domesticated animal that you value. Whereas like a cow or a pig is kind of seen lesser than, or is on this- put on this earth for clothing or your food. So I think it's just the way we look at things or the way that we feel that we have like ownership over certain animals and their lives.

Maureen Holloway  6:50  
There are entire economies, of course, based on that. Particularly I think of wool, and there's a, you know, an argument that you're not killing the animal, they're sustainable, that you're shearing them. Same thing with llamas, and alpaca and so on. And that there really is no substitute for, you know, in terms of warmth, than wool. And there's also the argument that, and I had this discussion with my husband, when we were in Scotland, and the cows there are so cute. What if- If our cows were that were that cute, we wouldn't eat them, which is ridiculous. But his argument, and I thought it was a good one, is that if we don't keep cows and sheep, then they'll just- they will become extinct. So there's that argument that they only exist because we allow them to and use them. So I just thought I'd put that out there. Are your shoes vegan leather?

Hilary MacMillan  7:43  
Yeah, so I don't buy any leather products myself either. I have stuff from when I wasn't vegan, and we weren't a vegan brand, and I don't believe in like throwing out, so I have stuff in my closet. But I- as of like, 2016, I don't purchase anything that has animal byproducts in it. In terms of like the wool conversation, I have no problem with wool in terms of like you're shearing a sheep, you're using their wool, they need to be sheared. It's more like the mass production of it. Right? So it's the same with like, if you're gonna hunt your own animals and kill them, that's a very different system than like factory farming. And animal husbandry like, you know, there's- there's ways that we go about it that are inherently cruel, like when you start doing it on a larger scale. And so there's like, you know, shearing mass amount of sheep, and they do them poorly, and get infections and all this stuff. And so that's kind of where I think the wool conversation- people are like, what's, you know, you need to share them, and I agree, you do, but it's like, when we start to do it inhumanely, I think is kind of the issue.

Yeah, so I'm trying to imagine the- we're speaking of fast fashion, what am I going to do with- I'm not going to get rid of my sweaters. Because they were all nicely sheared, I hope. 

Yeah. 

Wendy Mesley  8:48  
Maybe not. But what am I supposed to do with all of my- like, I have a couple of- like, I stopped wearing fur and feathers a long time ago. I might have one coat that's got a fur collar on it. But- But what am I going to do with all the leather? What am I going to do with- I don't know. Like, it- because it's fast fashion. Just does everybody just move away from it eventually? Is that- Is that what you're hoping? Because we all want to change the world?

Hilary MacMillan  9:11  
Well, I think anything you own, you can keep, like, you don't want to contribute to more landfill just because you choose not to wear leather anymore. Like if you have it, you should use it. Like we try to get the most of our clothing that's kind of like, you know, what we should be buying to try to get the most and most wears out of our pieces. I don't- I personally would love it if we couldn't move away from leather. I don't think it's a reality. The amount of, you know, people that eat meat and the amount of leather products that we produce, like I am not naive in the fact that I think that this is like going to be a global revolution. We're no longer gonna eat meat. I just think it's like- maybe like Meatless Monday or like you know, reducing your intake of meat. I think buying from local farms, local places near where you live, sourcing your meat, trying to figure out where it's coming from. I just think we can make these small changes to- and that's in every industry in every- across every sphere of course. Making these small things to kind of make it slightly better.

Maureen Holloway  10:03  
Let's move on to being size inclusive. Now this is something that would have been unheard of, say, 25 years ago, although there has been a movement towards- towards that across the board. The- for example, I remember reading and correct me if I'm wrong, you would know this Hillary, but the average size woman in the United States, which is where all these stats seem to come from, is shorter and bigger than the fashion industry would ever, ever admit to. 

Hilary MacMillan  10:31  
Yeah.

Maureen Holloway  10:32  
Yeah, I think it's like five foot four and 160 pounds is the average. The average, and clothes are just not being made pretty beautiful clothes were just not being made for that woman, which seemed crazy, because that's your consumer. So that- was that part of your- your- your- your decision to- because you say you're known for plus, but you're not just plus. But you are a plus size designer.

Hilary MacMillan  10:58  
Yes, so we are extra small to 4x. So we do kind of all- like a wide range of sizes. That's like from a size two to a size 28 is kind of where the numerical sizes differ off medical sizes. I think fashion longtime has, like, intentionally been exclusionary, just so that, like, I have to get this or it's the hottest thing ever. I think that's kind of like, where it's been for years and years and years. It's like, not everyone can access it. And that's kind of been its, like, vibe, in a sense. I think people are kind of like- with social media and more voices and people being interested in fashion and plus size influencers and all these things coming out. I think it's- people are looking for stylish clothing, and they want it across a wide range of sizes, and we saw a huge kind of push for it right before the pandemic, and especially in the pandemic, and we were like lucky that we were able to kind of be able to offer those pieces to women of up to 4x if they wanted to.

Wendy Mesley  11:55  
I almost find it- this is gonna sound very conspiratorial, but when I was in high school, I was like a size 10. And then I'm basically the same size as I was, more- pieces may not line up exactly the same way. But I'm basically the same, but I'm not a 10 anymore. And yet I'm really a 10. It's ridiculous. I'm still a 10 in England. So I- like, did they just like downscale? Is 28 really like a 12? Like, did they- did the big "They," did they- Did they change the sizes?

Maureen Holloway  12:26  
Marilyn Monroe would be a size 16.

Wendy Mesley  12:30  
Yeah, so I don't know, is this just my conspiracy?

Hilary MacMillan  12:34  
So Marilyn Monroe definitely was not a size 16, I think she was like a UK size 16, which is two sizes down from our size. I don't think that- people say that, it's just so misleading. The problem, I think, with the fashion industry, there's no standardization of sizing. So if your brand wants to make a size 10 that fits like a size six, that's your prerogative and you can call it a size 10. If you want to make a size 28 that fits like a size 12, you can do that. So, you know people even have like, just size 1, 2, 3, 4. Like there is no standardization at all across the industry. And I don't think there ever will be, but yeah, it's just like vanity sizing, or like making, you know, certain things certain ways.

Wendy Mesley  13:15  
Yeah no, I feel much better when I buy something that's a smaller size, even if I know, I'm a certain weight.

Maureen Holloway  13:20  
If I'm ever seeing two dresses, one is a 10, one's an 8, and they both fit me the same way, I'll buy the 8. Eight or a six or a four. So I know. That's the way we've been raised. We're- we are- We've been raised as a size-ist- like anybody who tells me they're a size zero, I just want to barf, because that means- so you don't exist. Basically. Size zero, you're nothing.

Hilary MacMillan  13:50  
Now they have 00.

Wendy Mesley  13:52  
I'm an x x 00. No, I just- I wonder though, it was many many years ago, decades ago, that a friend of mine who was working for an ad agency did the- the Dove commercials, which was you're beautiful, like women are all beautiful, even if you're imperfect. And yet you look at the women- most, not in your campaign, but in most of the women walking down the runways and fashion week or whatever. They're all tall and skinny and, like, nothing changed. Except for you.

Hilary MacMillan  14:23  
I think it's getting there. Like I think that people are starting to like wake up to it and like, realizing that like, there are dollars there, that- everything's kind of money, right, like at the end of the day, and I think people are starting to realize there are dollars in, you know, having plus sized fashion and stuff, but it's a slow- fashion's slow. We work so far out, like we work a year out. Even to do change, it doesn't happen quickly. There's also a lot of people kind of at the helm of this too that are like living in this archaic world that you know, thinks that it should be a certain way and doesn't want to adapt. It's getting better. I think the big conversation right now is like, even these large brands that do do plus sizing don't ever put it in their stores. So they might be like, we want to have up to a 4x or 5x, whatever, but we won't- You have to like, buy it online. So there's like a barrier to entry there, too. So there's all these like nuances of the conversation as well that like, the access to it is really still quite bad. 

Maureen Holloway  15:14  
Wow. I had no idea. So they have the sizes, but they're not putting them on display.

Hilary MacMillan  15:20  
Yeah. So when it's like buy online, and there's like an added cost, of course, they can't just like go into a store and try it on, they have to like, pay for the shipping. It doesn't work, pay for their term shipping. So yeah.

Maureen Holloway  15:29  
It's also the way a lot of- I don't even know what the correct term is. But you know, cross dressers, who- you buy your clothes online now. I remember used to work in a dress shop, this is way back in the 80s, and I remember a guy coming in to try- we were- it was a small little shop, and he came in and he picked- picked a bunch of- you know, he was a strapping man, and he picked a few outfits, went back to try them on. And I went back to ask if I could help him, or get a different size, y'know, as you do, and- and he said, I hope I'm not upsetting you. But this is the only way I get to buy clothes. And I think Wow, well at least you know, that we have online shopping now. But there was a time where if you didn't fit the mold in any way, you had nowhere to go. You lived your life in shame.

Hilary MacMillan  15:30  
It's crazy to me that like- even I was- I was in Europe this summer, I was in Italy, and they lost my luggage. And I'm like an extra large. So like, I can still shop at like, you know, H&M and- I was in Sweden, H&M in Sweden, but like, they don't go above of an extra large there. And I was just thinking that like, if you were plus sized and you lost your baggage, like you have two days and you need clothes, where are you going to get your clothes? Like the access to it, like you have to wait for it to arrive to your hotel? And I was just thinking that like, that's a very scary thing, if like, you can't? You lose the whole vacation, and like, this is such a small example, but it's just like, the access to it is- is wild.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  16:49  
The Women of Ill Repute.

Maureen Holloway  16:58  
Hillary, I'd like to tell you that it's a small example, but Wendy and I just came back from a trip where- where my sister in law lost her luggage. I mean, it's- it happens all the time now. So just- that's just a good example, how- how such a large swath of people are not catered to internationally. So you're changing all that. But the bottom line about fashion, about clothes, is we have to look good. And you- you're- I mean, I'm looking at what you're wearing right now, which I can't- which I think it's a floral- 

Hilary MacMillan  17:28  
It's a blazer. 

Maureen Holloway  17:28  
Blazer, you have a whole suit in that, that your- your- your materials are lush and vibrant and lo- you know, not- not a lot of navy blue in your collection.

Hilary MacMillan  17:40  
Yes. So you know, we're trying to create things that are like a little bit more interesting. We're kind of heavily just like dopamine dressing, like bringing joy to your wardrobe. You know, if you want to buy a black sweater, there's a million places you can go buy a black sweater. So we're trying to create- like use a lot of print and pattern play, and create these kind of unique pieces in your wardrobe. And not create- we do a couple of basics, but really we're trying to kind of like, do interesting details and interesting styles and designs. 

Maureen Holloway  18:05  
Wendy wants to ask about Barbie. I know you do.

Wendy Mesley  18:07  
Yeah, it's all about Barbie. So- So Maureen- Maureen grew up with Barbies. And you know, my mother was not into Barbie, and I wasn't into dolls, and wasn't really given the option of being into dolls. And I saw the Barbie movie late so I kind of knew the whole thing, and by the time I- I was just- anyway, so you did a collection, and you- I think you said you have a fond nostalgia for her. Like I don't see Barbie as a feminist icon, but you perhaps do, Maureen does. So I'm just wondering about how- like how that went over, like why you decided to do a pink thing, because you know she's- she's controversial, like she- her waist is like- it's completely- like, for you in particular, who was into like plus sized people and designing clothes for plus sized people. That's not Barbie, like there's the curvy doll or whatever. But that didn't sell.

Hilary MacMillan  19:04  
So we- we did- we got approached by Barbie to do a collaboration with them a year before that- Our- we actually launched the stuff, so it was in August. And yes, Barbie has some problematic history, I would say anyone kind of knows that in terms of like, unrealistic beauty standards and body image and stuff, I would say they're making a huge effort to kind of become accessible, and more visibility, and show more body types, skin colors, occupations, and they're trying to really kind of push into kind of female empowerment and, you know, this idea that you can be whatever you want. And so we like that, and that kind of aligns with our brand and what we kind of pushed towards, so you know, we're here for like, the new Barbie, and where they're trying to kind of take it in terms of representation. And so that's kind of where our brands aligned, is kind of the- this new era Barbie, if that makes any sense.

Wendy Mesley  20:03  
Well, except we've been hearing about the new era of Barbie for- I mean, Barbie is older than me. I've been hearing about the new era forever. Sorry, I'll let Maureen get in here with Barbie.

Maureen Holloway  20:14  
I think the movie- I think Greta Gerwig and Noah Bernbaum's vision of Barbie really changed, because- I'm not going to go on too long about that, because we're here more to talk about Hillary. But the movies was based- where Barbie ruled. This was a female empowered world. And it was the Kens that were- were subjugated. And whenever that happens, there's going to- every action demands a reaction, and of course the Kens bring the- they- they visit- Ken visits the real world and brings back these ideas that men actually should be in charge. And so that's really what that Barbie is about. And then it's not perfect when either- when- when one group can rule another group. So- and I think Barbie herself, as played by Margot Robbie, came to realize that her world was artificial. So maybe I'm overreading. I don't think I am. But I think there has been- I think that this movie, and this collaboration that Hillary did, is actually more in keeping with them, a greater awareness of femininity and feminism than the traditional Barbie embodied. There. I'm gonna get off my soapbox now.

Wendy Mesley  21:34  
So are you- you are obviously a feminist, Hillary. 

Hilary MacMillan  21:37  
Yeah.

Wendy Mesley  21:39  
Are- do you have new slogans coming out on- on the- on jackets or T shirts or whatever?

Hilary MacMillan  21:47  
We have no plans to, we did that for a couple years. We have retired it right now, we've retired that kind of jacket and the sayings on them. But you know, that was really born out of- I went to women's march in Washington. And that was really kind of born out of being there. And that experience. I also think that everyone's idea of feminism is a little bit different. So, you know, my definition is obviously different than everyone else's definition. And so I think that's important when like, we're having conversations about it we have to keep that in mind is that, like, everyone's view is different. But we all need to be here to like work together and support each other. I think, at the root of it. That's what it really is.

Wendy Mesley  22:21  
Yeah, I'm tired of being told, Oh, you're third wave or you're- whatever wave I am. Like, aren't we all just, you know, we either believe in feminism or we don't. Period. So, I'm... 

Hilary MacMillan  22:31  
Yeah, we're here to support each other and not- 

Wendy Mesley  22:34  
Yeah. And we're here to support each other. And we're here to learn. We're always here to learn. So go ahead, Maureen. Sorry.

Maureen Holloway  22:39  
What is it like being a Canadian designer? I mean, your clothes are available anywhere. But it's- we're not known for- we're- you know, we're not like the Italians or the French the Americans, so- so do you feel that it's- you're in a bit of an underdog position on the international fashion scene?

Hilary MacMillan  22:57  
I don't really think about it like in terms of like the international fashion scene, because we're not like, trying to be in Milan or like be in, you know, Paris and show at these, you know, international runway shows. I do think the disadvantage to being a Canadian designer is, like, access to the United States. Like, well, obviously, we're closer, but like duties, taxes and all like the minutia of running a business, I think there is a bit of a downside in terms of that. And then like access to funding and all these great organizations that US has for fashion designers that Canada doesn't have. But I always kind of give the analogy in the United States, when you're designing, you're kind of like, it's a big pond and you're tiny fish, whereas in Canada, it's kind of a smaller pond and you're a bigger fish. So you're able to kind of create a name a little bit quicker, I would say in Canada, then maybe you would be in these larger countries. So that's a huge advantage. Our community is small, but we're all very supportive of each other for the most part. So that's a big plus to being a Canadian designer. But there is kind of this, like, theory that if you don't leave Canada, you can't- you're not cool 'til you leave Canada and then come back. And I kind of think that's all a little bit of crap. But there is that kind of like mindset in people's minds.

Wendy Mesley  24:05  
But Canada is cool. Aren't we cool now?

Hilary MacMillan  24:09  
I think so. No, I mean, we're cold, but we're cool.

Wendy Mesley  24:13  
So what is cool now? Like I'm seeing a leopard print come back. And I'm like, No! I'm just seen so many versions of that. I probably had what I considered to be an ironic version of a leopard print. Is it back? I guess that's two questions. Is leopard print back and what are the trends?

Hilary MacMillan  24:32  
Leopard print is back. There are so many trends now, like there's so many micro trends, there's so many like colorways that are in style. We do a lot of like trend forecasting for future years, and like the amount of things you can tap into is insane. I always say that, like I think we're moving away from trends and we're kind of going into more like style. So I think you need to develop your own personal style and things that work for you. And it's not so much a trend anymore, but just like mood and style. So that's where I'm kind of advocating for people to go in terms of building up their wardrobe is kinda feel what works for you, what color combinations work,  and then try and build things around them. And then when you buy new pieces, make sure you can get like three different outfits existing in your wardrobe. Like try and buy a piece and be like, How can I style this three complete different ways? Before you purchase it.

Maureen Holloway  25:18  
That's- that's a good tip. I also- I'm friends with a stylist who said, whatever you buy, you have to wear within three weeks, unless it's like a very specific outfit, like a wedding dress.

Wendy Mesley  25:31  
You get married for three weeks before.

Maureen Holloway  25:34  
Incorporate into your wardrobe, you know, on an ea- in an easy way and on a regular basis. But okay, before we wrap up, and we still have a little bit of time left, so yeah, this idea of older dressing and being age appropriate and- and, you know, I walk in- I'll walk into a shop now, I was shopping with a friend of mine who was visiting and you know, maybe look around go, oh, this is not for us, because it's filled with, you know, teenagers and- and the clothes are all transparent, by the way. Not dressed- not wearing clothes. These mesh dresses with no foundation garments for lack- I find really daunting, but that seems to be out there. Anyway, I guess my question is, what- is there such a thing as age appropriate dressing? And honestly, is there? I mean, I know you can wear whatever you want. But really, can you?

Hilary MacMillan  26:31  
I think so. I think it's about what you pair it with. Like if you're gonna do a mesh dress and you're a little bit older, maybe put on a like a slip underneath it, if that makes you feel more comfortable. I grew up with a mother who's very artsy, and she doesn't believe in like anything in terms of like- you can- you can wear whatever you want. And she's always been kind of like, a little bit outside the box. So I'm a huge proponent of wear, you know, anything you want at any time, as long as you feel good and comfortable in it. But you know, there's a reality to anything- if you don't feel like you want to wear a short skirt, don't, but I don't know, I don't think that there's so much, you know, age appropriate stuff.

Wendy Mesley  27:05  
We were raised with so much crap. You know, it's- I saw a picture of Katie Couric, who was like the perky young anchor, which- and she's in her 60s now. And there was a photo of her and she looked great. And then there was a- a close up of her hand, and I thought oh, she's old, like hide you- like what the hell is that? Like, it's so ridiculous. And this whole lamb is mutton idea. Like don't wear this or don't wear that. And yet, we have all this stuff in our heads, because we were raised thinking that, you know, if your skirt is too tight, or if you show a wrinkle or, if- or whatever. So how- if you could get rid of all that, that would be great.

Maureen Holloway  27:42  
It's ridiculous how we're shamed. Again, we were in Italy, Wendy, I think this was- I think you were with us, and there- we wouldn't- no, you'd left. And there was a woman, she's probably in her 70s, deeply tan, she had this store that had absolutely gorgeous, ridiculously expensive clothes. She had massive breasts. She was wearing a caftan and no- no bra. And, you know, she had her whole- anywhere else you would have thought, oh my god, what's she thinking? But she was feel- felt very comfortable in her own skin. And- and kind of looked- not the way I would want to look, but looked sexy in her own way. And you would not see that in this country. I can't imagine where you would.

Hilary MacMillan  28:25  
Just as women, we like, put so many, like, things on ourselves always, like, these, like, rules and like, how we should dress, these like toxic traits that we have. And I just think that like, it's so not necessary and like it's so, you know, if you feel confident wearing a bra on a huge caftan, like go for it. Like that's awesome.

Maureen Holloway  28:42  
But it's women who will be critical, far more so than men.

Hilary MacMillan  28:46  
Oh, yeah. Women on other women. Like you're talking about feminism, all this stuff. It's like, we need to stop judging each other and just like, you know, let people live and do what they want to do. And just be like- you know, it's- it's a shame because I feel like, from a young age, we're kind of taught to be pitted against each other. And it's like, you know, just shouldn't be that way.

Wendy Mesley  29:04  
Along the lines of being old, I have another question. So you're big into colors, like you're- all kinds of patterns, and it's great. It's not a lot of navy blue, as- as Maureen says. But I'm having a flashback to my mom. Like she had no money and she wasn't exactly a fashionista, but she- she thought that there was- they were sold this idea of, you're a spring or you're a fall. Like- Do you remember that? I remember that. I don't think I ever did that. But everyone says you're a- you're a certain something, you're a summer or you're a whatever. So our colors are thing? Like are they- are- are they back? Should we pay more attention?

Hilary MacMillan  29:45  
No. In short, like I don't think so. I think that everyone can wear every single color. Obviously if you think that like your skin color doesn't work with yellow, you're probably going to shy away from that. But no, I think that like these old archaic rules are gone, this whole like, no white after Labor Day, or don't put brown and black together, or like all these things that no longer- that do exist still, do- shouldn't exist anymore. Like this whole, like, don't mix silver and gold. I just think that like- it's just- fashion is all about like mixing and matching and color play and pattern play, and being a little bit creative, so yeah, I think wear anything that you want, like, throw out these old rules and just kind of play in your wardrobe a little bit more.

Wendy Mesley  30:25  
So my white pants, I shouldn't put my white pants away. I know they're not in style. My daughter goes, what are you doing wearing those white pants? But- But I can wear them in October if I want to. Or November or December.

Maureen Holloway  30:35  
Yeah, whatever you want. That's the bottom line. 

Hilary MacMillan  30:42  
Winter white is a big trend, so you know, it's a huge trend in the winter.

Maureen Holloway  30:47  
Yeah, also I was reading- what's it called? The quiet elegance, the secret rich look? Yeah, wearing all white all the time because you're rich and you can afford to have everything dry cleaned and-

Hilary MacMillan  31:00  
Yeah, no spills, no spills. People are feeding you your food so it's no problem. 

Wendy Mesley  31:07  
Or you wear a bib. That's what I do.

Hilary MacMillan  31:10  
Yeah.

Maureen Holloway  31:11  
The other thing is, fashionable is- I love reading about it too. And I love the whole political- and I remember when stockings went out of style, right? Hosiery, pantyhose, because it doesn't matter how cold it is, the implication is that you- you're not outside. You've got your driver picking you up, so why would wear stockings? Anyway.

Wendy Mesley  31:31  
I don't have a driver. I don't have a driver. I gotta get a driver. Hillary. We got to wrap up in a second. But it's lovely to speak to you, and obviously Maureen and I want you to do a- 

Maureen Holloway  31:43  
Collection. 

Wendy Mesley  31:44  
Yeah, that too. Yeah. It's- it's lovely. So we're wishing you all the best. And yeah, thank you so much.

Hilary MacMillan  31:52  
Thank you for having me. This is really fun. Usually people don't hit me with any hard hitting questions. So I appreciate that. It's usually fluff, fluff, fluff. So it was refreshing.

Wendy Mesley  32:02  
So what should we wear?

Hilary MacMillan  32:08  
Thank you so much.

Maureen Holloway  32:10  
Bye!

Wendy Mesley  32:13  
So do I have to get a leopard print?

Maureen Holloway  32:16  
No. No, in fact, in fact, my son told me about 10 years ago, my older son- don't ever wear any animal prints. It's too cliche for women of a certain age, it's that- don't wear it.

Wendy Mesley  32:30  
Yeah but that's that ageist thing, you know, like I was gonna make a joke about walking in backwards to the store because of the- my back looks great. But it's not appropriate, Maureen. We have to be- you know, ageism. It's the same as plus-size-ism. You gotta get over all that.

Maureen Holloway  32:47  
I also remember another friend of mine, her son told her it was time for her to put her boobs away.

Wendy Mesley  32:56  
No, it's just get a better bra, or not, like the lady and the caftan that you saw.

Maureen Holloway  33:04  
Exactly, there's nothing sexier and more attractive than self confidence. You know, unless-

Wendy Mesley  33:10  
And good posture, says your mother.

Maureen Holloway  33:14  
But yeah, you're right. So I was gonna say, what do you like to- I have a- I have a wedding coming up. As a- it's a formal wedding and it's Christmas time kind of thing. And I'm wearing shorts.

Wendy Mesley  33:25  
Ooh, yeah. Well, you got legs. I hated what- you once said to me, Yeah, well, legs are the last to go. I'm sorry, but they were the first to go with me. So I'm never wearing shorts, but I'll wear something that's backless.

Maureen Holloway  33:36  
As someone who's seen you in a bathing suit quite often, you haven't lost anything, so just shut up.

Wendy Mesley  33:41  
Okay. Just don't look too closely, get some new glasses, or whatever the line is. No we're all- we're all like- we're all going to endorse the- the Hillary message, which is, like, just go for it. Like, just be yourself. But- But it's funny that she is so into colors, that she's not into fall, spring, or whatever. I don't even know what I am. Do you know what you are? 

Maureen Holloway  34:04  
I was summer. 

Wendy Mesley  34:07  
But apparently that-

Maureen Holloway  34:10  
It's another one of my mother's stories, but for my birthday she gave me- she took me to colors, and had my colors done, because she- she had her little wallet, or- she was a spring, and it turns out I was a summer. And then we were having an argument as we so often did, and I remember she said to me, You are bold. You are manipulative, and you refuse to wear your colors.

Wendy Mesley  34:31  
So which did she hate the most?

Maureen Holloway  34:37  
I guess all are true. Anyway, lovely to see you.

Wendy Mesley  34:41  
Talk soon, yeah.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  34:44  
Women of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley, with help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.