Denise Donlon: Firebrand

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway.

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
When you were talking to Denise Donolon today, I don't even know where to start with this one.

Wendy Mesley  0:13  
Well, we can probably start just by saying she's the busiest woman in showbiz. It's kind of take us forever to pin her down, I think.

Maureen Holloway  0:21  
Yeah, yeah, I think it's always been that way. Let's just do a quick and cursory run through of Denise's many accomplishments. Yeah, I will start with I mean, this isn't even the beginning. But most people our age will know her from people younger than us as well and older, will know where for Much Music that she was a host. She was producer of the New Music, she ultimately to make a long story short, became vice president of the whole enchilada. 

Wendy Mesley  0:48  
Yeah and then she became president of Sony Music Canada. She furthered and nurtured the careers of people like Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Celine Dion all kinds of things of famous people.

Maureen Holloway  1:00  
She is married to Murray McLaughlin.

Wendy Mesley  1:02  
So that that's an accomplishment. 

Maureen Holloway  1:04  
Well, I think it is for him. Denise was also had a CBC English radio. We all have lots of thoughts about that.

Wendy Mesley  1:10  
Yeah, I probably have a few thoughts. But back to Much Music. She's so she's worked with everyone, Moses Znaimer of course, Bill Clinton, Conrad Black, as you can imagine, she's she's dealt with more than her share of bullies and blowhards we've known too.  

Maureen Holloway  1:26  
Not that they're necessarily the bullies and blowhards in question but of course, the industry is rampant with them. So more on that as well along the way Denise has been given okay. The Order of Canada two Gemini awards Juno Awards, the Peter Jawsky Literacy Award, the Rosalie Trailblazer award, I got that one, a member of the Canadian Broadcasters Hall of Fame, a three time Broadcast Executive of the Year winner. She was shortlisted for sainthood and she is the true queen of Westeros.

Wendy Mesley  1:54  
So the Nobel Prize I think she gave back.

Maureen Holloway  1:57  
She gave it back because someone needed it more.

Wendy Mesley  2:07  
So there's way more obviously, we've barely scratched the surface to do that you can read her book. It's called 'Fearless As Possible Under The Circumstances. She stole that line from someone. We've heard that a few times or you can just sit down with us now and welcome hi Denise it's so nice to see you.

Denise Donlon  2:23  
Hi. Wow, that high praise indeed from you, women of ill repute. Thanks so much what a lovely introduction. Was that recorded, I'd like to use it somewhere.

Maureen Holloway  2:33  
It's recorded, it's yours and like you said and only scratched the surface. And I want to add something to that, you're one of the very few people in the broadcast industry, to the best of my knowledge has come out unscathed. I don't I've never heard anybody say anything, truly bad. Not even a little bad. I mean, you you're loved.

Denise Donlon  2:56  
So far, so I'm sure there's something going to be under a rock somewhere. Well, there was that on-air-

Wendy Mesley  3:04  
You can tell us a little bit dirty secrets, no but it's true, I mean, you are you you have done so much. And you have run some really big things. You've been a rock and roll person back before there were cameras thing. God, I want to ask you about that. But it's you but yeah, you've you've done wonderful things.

Denise Donlon  3:21  
No, thank you. Well, it's been fun and you know what, I've just been really lucky. I mean, yeah, lucky, hard work, but also, you know, just opportunities have been a presented at the right time, I think and, you know, then you throw yourself in there with your imposter syndrome, you know, bumbling all over the place and just try to do the best you can do in sometimes pretty fraught environments. So, you know, but I always think, you know, you have to lead with kindness, you have to lead with empathy. And, you know, if there was more women leading, maybe we wouldn't be in the worldwide chaos that we happen to be at the moment.

Maureen Holloway  3:57  
Now, you see, I take exception to that, you know, if women ran the world, it would be a better place. I don't know if that's necessarily true. You know, we might bring a different0

Wendy Mesley  4:07  
Have you met me and Maureen?

Maureen Holloway  4:10  
You might we might bring a different attitude towards that, but I mean, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I'm not absolutely sure that, I mean, it's I think everything should be as equal as possible that everybody should have an opportunity, but I don't know if if the most successful women are necessarily the kindest.

Denise Donlon  4:30  
Well, I think that, you know, I think that's going to take at least a generation. I mean, a lot of times, I mean, first of all, we haven't been tested to that level, because I mean, if you look at the numbers for women in any kind of power, you know, 20% of TSX boards like 5% CEOs, like you know, the numbers in politics, etc. It's just, unfortunately, to be able to thrive in some of those worlds you often have to adopt what we would consider, you know, male traits, I guess, right? You if you don't show your vulnerability, you, you know you lead more authoritatively than more team workI. And it's never been my way. And you know, the other thing too, is it's there are so few numbers, but it's really rarefied air up there. And sometimes the women that do get there are so they're running so hard to stay in place, or at least improve things that maybe they don't think there's enough air to share. And I think that once we get to those magic, well, they always say the numbers 33%, anywhere that you can start, you know, really helping and mentoring people and, and changing the environment, changing the culture, because the culture of, you know, greed and corruption and environmental degradation. It's just just not doing anybody any favors at the moment. So yeah, let us have a turn.

Wendy Mesley  5:56  
I don't know. I tried to talk to my daughter about the the environment and AI and all of these things that are threatening us these days and they're, they're huge and she's 25. And so I was assuming that she would sort of say, yeah, we're screwed. Like, we're young people, we're screwed. But instead, she's she's very much like you and that, and maybe not like Maureen and maybe not like so much like me, and in the sense that she thinks that, that women still have an extremely hard time in terms of in terms of getting ahead. So I don't know, I I'd like to think that that's all changed, or changing. Maybe it's not but but I wonder, just back to the original idea of because you are kind of a rock and roll chick in spite of everything. Yeah, like, could people still be, could they still play? Can they still like, you talk about smoking and drinking and whatever, in your 20s and 30s. And I looked at Taylor Swift had this big concert on and like, can she still like, cut loose?

Denise Donlon  6:57  
Well, I mean, luckily, I, you know, sort of came up as it were in a time where social media didn't really exist, you know, so. So I think I got away with a lot. Smoking and drinking, I mean, you know, there was the Whitesnakes slighted in tour of Europe, 1984, I'm sure if there were pictures that are bounded from that tour people might think about me a little bit differently. But you know, I'm open about that stuff, though. Those, those were the days those were the times, but I think that maybe your daughter at 25, you know, my son's 31 now, and I remember going to high school graduations and you know, the parents were, you know, more like, with their daughters, you can do anything, you can be at all you can have at all, and we're very sort of booths three, which is good, except for sometimes those the girls that Well, I saw a couple that could sing and they really couldn't, you know, they they couldn't have that part anyway, and one day someone will tell them, but I think that encouraging women, you know, and young girls, especially, I think it will take another generation and I think that they will not be hobbled by the imposter syndrome and they will, you know, rise up and stand up and just not take it any more and do what they want to do and more power to them.

Maureen Holloway  8:17  
I want to go back to the Whitesnake tour for a second because I know that I know I read that you objected to the backstage laminates, you wouldn't wear one the security passes because of that had a basically a woman's moistened lips as the end you said, no.

Denise Donlon  8:36  
We'll it might of been a banana. I wasn't really sure what it was.

Maureen Holloway  8:41  
Either way, you said no and I think about this because we're about the same age and and we've dealt with many of the same people. And, you know, I remember the early days, I was applauded for having the right attitude, right. According to the man and you, one of the guys, one of the guys and I know that you have been in as well. And yet you would draw the line in places where I was too intimidated to.

Denise Donlon  9:11  
Sometimes. You know what Maureen, I think even that example, I think that I could have drawn the line a lot more often. And I think that I could have been more aware of the sexism that was coming at ya. But I wasn't because I was trying so hard just to, you know, just succeed as me. I mean, that story was so I'll describe the backstage laminate, that was the Whitesnake slided in tour, and mine, of course, said all access, which is also some so many things are single entendres, right. Anyway, we were at the beginning of our European tour, and I went backstage at the stage door to get our laminates for the band. I was touring with a band called headpins. At the time, we were there support act, and I looked and there's Jimmy Eyers. He was the Whitesnake tour manager, tall, thin guy with very long hair, smoking at the back and he said he handed me the laminates. And it was like these moistened red lips with, with something going in the mouth like I wasn't sure what it was, but it was called Whitesnake. Anyway he handed it to me and I looked at it and I was like, I'm not wearing that, that objectifies women and I remember him just sort of drawing on a cigarette like. He said, well, I guess you're not getting backstage and now you're done. So and for me, the big feminist compromises like for god's sakes and I put it on the inside of my jacket, you know, so that I wouldn't have to wear it. 

Maureen Holloway  10:40  
That says everything. 

Wendy Mesley  10:42  
Yeah. Is that like, what? What what happens now? I I'm not sure it's better. Is it better? I mean, sure, you could call that out, but.

Denise Donlon  10:48  
is it better in terms of overall sexism out there? I think people are more guarded for sure. We've certainly, you know, seen enough Me Too, you know, movements.

Wendy Mesley  11:00  
And everything's changed. Not. 

Denise Donlon  11:02  
Not changed.

Maureen Holloway  11:04  
But but but the biggest artists in the world right now, the biggest tourists are women. I mean, Taylor, just, she's changing economies.

Denise Donlon  11:13  
Well she has that power, she's changing all kinds of things. We're recording her masters because she thought she was ripped off in terms of a management company or publishing company, like, well done, my girl go for it.

Maureen Holloway  11:25  
You know, I think in some ways, the power balance has shifted. I mean, it comes down sadly to money. And right now that money is in the hands of the Beyonce is and the Taylor Swift's and more so than the Whitesnakes of the world. If even, there aren't even any, I'm trying to think Is there a big rock band out there? Maybe the 1975 but not not to the same degree that there were musics changed.

Denise Donlon  11:47  
Yeah music's strange. It's still it's still run by men, you know, Live Nation's run by men, Canadians as as a rule, which is great. The, you know, the labels the recording industry as a whole. I mean, people are trying the Junos, you know, the Canadian Academy, Recording Arts and Sciences, they are trying really hard to change their culture, and making sure that even in categories, women producers are encouraged and engineers and all the rest of that stuff. Because as little as you know, 20 years ago, I mean, you can think about the little affair. When you look at the little what happened with Sarah, you know, the the reigning top 20 in the charts, especially in pole star, which says how much how big the grosses are. I think there's two women in the top 20 and so it has shifted a little, it's got to shift a little, a lot more. I do think often, sadly, with any sort of change in movement, it's, it's like two steps forward, one step back, and then twos, and then hopefully, we're still, you know, moving forward, but we're not always I mean, look what's happening in the states that lots of female women's rights and freedoms are being removed with a stroke of a pen.

Wendy Mesley  12:57  
So I want to stop talking about issues and start talking about the really important stuff, which is gossip. 

Maureen Holloway  13:04  
She's a journalist you know. 

Wendy Mesley  13:08  
Maureen was sort of laughing because you're I think, if you include all the indices, it's 1100 pages.

Denise Donlon  13:15  
It's way too long. I mean, I pity anybody who's like, you know, grinding through my thoughts on the CRTC hearings. It's like, oh, for god's sakes.

Maureen Holloway  13:32  
Okay, but I do want to ask you, because I mean, we all have so much in common, but I do want to ask you about the CBC debacle. You were shuffled out of your job, and you were doing a great job.

Denise Donlon  13:46  
Thank you. 

Maureen Holloway  13:47  
Are you over this? I mean, well, it takes it's it leaves a mark, let's put it that way. 

Denise Donlon  13:51  
It totally leaves a mark. Am I angry about it? Yeah. I'm still pissed, because I think it was done for the wrong reasons. I mean, at the time, you know, we just as Wendy will remember really well, we just gone through $171 million shortfall. I was going coast to coast trying to say radio stations, some of those little radio stations had like two staff members in it. And I know people were marching in the street for radio. So when Richard Stersberg was let go, I was called and asked to put my hat in the ring from the president's office, because I had TV. I had old TV experience. And because we've just gone through three years of me, just, you know, trying so hard to support radio in a time of economic crisis, right. And radio had no commercials on it. So it wasn't a revenue generator. So we had to figure that out. We had to switch to digital in many ways. While we were downsizing, it was a very difficult time. And I knew that nobody Well, it was my conceit, that nobody Radio are nobody at the at the executive table would argue is hard for radio and support the journalists at radio as I would. So I thought about it for a couple of days. And I thought, no, I'm not going to put my hat in the ring. But please, you know, find an amazing person and, and I will salute and we will go forth together, but we didn't go forth together. So yeah, I was upset.

Wendy Mesley  15:25  
Now I mean, I don't need to tell you this. You've got Pierre Poilievre who's saying, you know let's defund the CBC the the numbers, or at least for television, not for and a little bit for radio, but particularly for television. Like, I agree with so much of what CBC does in spite I mean, like you I have a colored history with the with the CBC, but I agree with so much of their approach, but it's not just me who gets hit with subsidizing the CBC. It's, it's everybody. So I have very, very mixed feelings. And and I think you do, too, like you wrote about, will, will the CBC ever be recreated? If, if it's, if, if it's destroyed, and maybe it won't, and yet, part of me is like, like, I hardly want to make posters for pure Pollyanna. But if you're, if you're a public broadcaster, as you say, you've got to speak to the public. So not just to me, and not just to people who agree with me about about things. So I like, is it is it? Do people still care about the CBC? Does anyone give a crap about it?

Denise Donlon  16:30  
They do care for about it. And, you know, I can remember, you know, going across the country when, you know, those cuts were happening, and I was, you know, protested in some of those smaller towns in Sudbury or Sydney, Nova Scotia, right. They, they people came out with, you know, there's fire trucks and ambulances and we, you know, with their lights on, and their horns on and people holding up posters, like don't cut the CVC. So yeah, I know, people care and I think principally, I mean, in the book I struggled with, because I thought, oh, I'm expected to come up with what is the answer to the CBC? And I struggle with that.

Wendy Mesley  17:11  
Do you have the answer?

Denise Donlon  17:12  
Well, I do think that, you know, making it uncommercial would be the right thing, but they have and give the money back to the private part of the broadcasters and it's a tiny envelope at this point anyway. You know, once they last hockey, etc, but, you know, funding it properly. And as you know, you know, CBC is still in the bottom 33 percentile of publicly funded broadcasters around the world and yet, we still serve all the provinces and territories and eight Aboriginal language in French and in English, it's like, it's, it's a huge feat. And at the end of the day, when we look at, you know, the the world out there in terms of media literacy, I mean, you're fighting these corporations, while CBC isn't, but I think peep thinking people, are you looking at the Rupert Murdoch's of the world where Fox can own the public sentiment in America, because people are watching that service and accepting it verbatim, because they're the loudest, you know, pundits, paid pundits, mostly out there. So to not have a service that actually is working in support of the public versus the profit, I think would be hurtful to who we are as Canadians and who we aspire to be and, and negatively impacting our culture. I believe that in my bones.

Wendy Mesley  18:37  
Even though we both have a lot of anger towards the CBC, next>

Denise Donlon  18:42  
I have a lot of anger towards one person, not not the CBC. Because when you know, that happened, and I went up and cleared out my office and and went to the cottage, you know, I got hundreds of emails, and some of them from the journalists I respected most and that made me feel better. And you know, at the end of the day, it's business, it's business, and they're looking at you know, where can they cut and it's, it's business could have been done better. Let me just say that. 

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  19:19  
The Women Of Ill Repute. 

Maureen Holloway  19:22  
Okay, I'm going to steer the conversation back to gossipy stuff now. So when you were at Sony, you were I mean, throughout your career, you've been involved with all sorts of people I love maybe one of the best interviews I ever had and I did a lot with with Leonard Cohen and I understand you had a bit of a not a falling out you had a contre temps that was resolved. 

Denise Donlon  19:44  
A contre temps. Oui, oui. 

Maureen Holloway  19:46  
Can you can you tell us about that.

Denise Donlon  19:48  
So at the when I joined Sony Music Canada and Lennar was still signed to Canada so he was sort of like my artist which was awesome because I too used to interview him at the new music and much music in the olden days. is, but he had been up on Mount Baldy for 10 years. He hadn't put a record out for 10 years. So he was going back into the studio and we were very excited about what kind of product Leonard would, would bring. She said product like a record company president and you know, the stakes were very high, because in some countries like, you know, Norway and Sweden, for example, you know, he'd outsell Michael Jackson. So it was a big deal and I went down to listen to the record and that's a whole other story, the Leonard Cohen listening party sitting on the floor in a motel room. Anyway, drinking too much wine. So we put that record out, it did really well and then because he was sort of back in the public eye again, Sony wanted to do what they call an essentials record. Now, this was a two CD set at the time and it was like the most essential songs of Michael Jackson or Tony Bennett, or Destiny's Child, or whoever it was, and they did really well, when people really wanted to buy compilations in those days. Anyway, so Leonard wasn't pleased about doing a compilation record and I said, don't worry, you know, here's a whack of cash. You know, you can remaster all this stuff, you can rerecord stuff if you want, like, let's make it so that you're the most proud of this record. So he agrees, and he goes into the studio, we're going to amazing producer, Bob Ludwig. And then he sent me the tracklisting and Marianne wasn't on the tracklisting. That that huge song there Marianne. So I called up his manager and I said, you know, is real problem here, because Marianne is not on the track listing and I sent the tracklisting out to international and all the sales forecast had plummeted. They're like, we can't put out a record like this. It's not the essentials, there will be a laughingstock.

Where's Marianne? 

Where's Marianne? So I talked to Leonard about it. And he said, wow, like that song was so much better in memory than it was in actuality and I was like, okay, I said, oh, all right. I said bur Leonard, you know, the, your fans are gonna go crazy. They're going to be really mad. Well, I'll ask the fans, he said, and he had a really great relationship, he would love to be online, and he would debate his fans, and they would often just be in typing back. Anyway, he put a he put it out there and some of them agreed with him and some of them, you know, you know, against the evil record company trying to tell her what to do. But by and large, people really wanted Marianne on that record. So I know this is a long story, but ultimately, my boss at Sony Music International said, Denise, you know that contractually, you can put Marianne on it, and you don't need the artist approval and I was like, I hope it doesn't come to that. Anyway, it did come to that and I had to tell them, you know, Leonard, I can I don't need your approval. And then he this phone call, literally, it was holding the phone like two feet away from my ear because he was so angry. And it wasn't just me, it was every publisher that done him wrong, every record company that didn't treat him seriously, no respect. And I'm like Leonard, I've always been I, you know, on and on and on. And then at the end of it, he said, Denise, if you go against my wishes, if you do what I expressly asked you not to do, I want you to know that you will forever hold a much smaller place in my heart. I know, I was like, and I said, Leonard, I'm sorry, but that's just a chance. I'm gonna have to take. I know, I went home and I drank a huge glass of wine and felt terrible about it. And I called his manager I said, that was the worst conversation I've ever had with an artist, but I have to go ahead and do it and so she told him how upset I was and then the next day, he sent me the most beautiful email. It was actually I think I still have it in my office somewhere. Because it it hang on, hang on.

Wendy Mesley  24:13  
No, you can't see this unless you're watching YouTube, but Denise is going to look for the email. Oh my God.

Maureen Holloway  24:19  
No, but this is great. Look. Oh my goodness, you framed it. You framed it.

Denise Donlon  24:23  
Because I found it again when I was writing the book. Do you I'm gonna read it to you. It's very short. 

Maureen Holloway  24:27  
Yes of course. 

Denise Donlon  24:27  
He says Dear Denise Kelly passed your letter on to me. I hope you don't mind because I sent her a note also. Your place in my heart is as secure as ever. The conversation was just business. I kind of enjoyed it. I rarely get a chance to argue with anyone and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings and I sincerely apologize. I have to answer to my superiors just as you must answer to yours. So long, Marianne, nothing really hangs on this issue. These are all very tiny matters and have no weight at all. In the butcher shop we call the world. All that matters here is the heart. So let's keep our ears open. Your old friend Leonard.

Wendy Mesley  25:10  
It's fascinating.

Denise Donlon  25:13  
And then Marianne went out, it sold like crazy. 

Maureen Holloway  25:21  
You were right.

Wendy Mesley  25:23  
It speaks to so much of I don't know, I guess the underlying message in your book, which is, you know, your mom raised you to stand up for yourself and the world is your oyster and go out and you know, make things better. But there's also a business sense like it like I'm now doing this podcast with Maureen and we're like looking for more people to give us money for sponsors. And I'm like, oh, my god, CBC, I never I never had to do that.

Denise Donlon  25:48  
Yeah, it's tough. I hate asking for money. 

Wendy Mesley  25:50  
But it's, it's the real world. And when you were at Sony, when you're at CBC, when you were dealing with Leonard Cohen, it's always that like, how, how on earth? Do you ever find the line between doing the right thing and making enough to feed your kids and get the job at Sony? Like putting Marianne on the record?

Denise Donlon  26:09  
No, I don't know, I think you make those decisions based on principle, at the end of the day, you know, and I'm as bigger excuse me, chickenshit as anybody else when it comes to standing up for stuff. But sometimes you just have to do it. And I remember there was this great quote, John Stewart, I love John Stewart, who would know that we would get so much great information from our comedians. But he said, trying to remember it, if you don't stick to your values when they're being tested. They're not values, their hobbies. And you know, I've been in some situations where those kinds of things like putting MuchMusic put the first ever heard, we were the first mainstream broadcaster to put a float in the pride parade. And people called me they were, you know, it was before social media. And as soon as we put the much comes out, logo on the air, on all the electric circus dancers were very excited about being on the float, and we were figuring out a float. Then I started to get calls, people would call me and say, are you the dike that's running MuchMusic? And how dare you teach our kids to be fags? And I know and and they escalated Like, it wasn't just one or two. It was like a campaign. You know, I know where your kid goes to school. I know where you parked your car and so the day before, we're supposed to be in the parade, I went up to see Ron Waters, I know where Moses would land on it, because he was trying to or he was launching Queer TV at that time. And I went up to see Ron Waters because the Trump family owned the stations and there was a lot of stations coming out of 299 Queen Street West. And I told him what was going and he said, Denise, we've got your back, you're doing the right thing. And I came that with just that. That piece of support right, came down those stairs thinking that I could strangle those homophobic troglodytes with my bare hands. It just gave me so much power and confidence. And then I talked to every bit all the dancers on the float told me what it was going on, and not a single one pulled out. And, you know, I think that when you stand on a principle like that, it gives you power and, you know, we that was an amazing day, we careened down Young Street with the confetti and water cannons and you know, had we backed down and hate would have won and you know, that day loved one. So when you're in situations like that, you really do have to have your, you know, walk in the snow as it were, you have to come face to face with your own fear, and your own values and principles. And then hopefully, maybe not that time, maybe the next time you make a decision that you're proud of and that was the right one.

Maureen Holloway  28:53  
How's Murray?

Denise Donlon  28:55  
He's awesome. 

Wendy Mesley  28:57  
Does he know that you're the big prize, as we said.

Denise Donlon  29:02  
He's about to go on tour as himself and then Lunch At Alan's, which, if you've never seen Lunch At Alan's in concert, I urge you to go there doing a Christmas tour. It's Cindy Church and Mark Jordan and Ian Thomas and Murray and I tell you- 

Maureen Holloway  29:17  
Oh my god, very funny people.

Denise Donlon  29:19  
Oh my god, I swear, you will come out to levitating two feet off the ground. They're hilarious and beautiful there. Then they're all hits that everyone's had on their own or with other big stars. It's a great tour. So he's good. He's still rockin.

Wendy Mesley  29:38  
I read somewhere that you and Murray are like Canadian royalty, so you don't look like Canadian Royalty.

Denise Donlon  29:46  
The Coersa. The Coersa weekly I think that's what it was called. Yeah, on the cover of the Coersa.

Maureen Holloway  29:55  
Your Canadian royalty, so Canadian to call her if two famous, even relatively famous people are together, it's royalty.

Denise Donlon  30:05  
Well, you know, we all need our tiaras. Mine's over there. 

Maureen Holloway  30:10  
For sure. What do you up to now Denise? Apart from a million things I know you, you've got so many causes as well. I mean, not even music related and-

Wendy Mesley  30:19  
No more yoga pictures, because it just makes me feel very insecure. You look amazing. 

Denise Donlon  30:25  
Thank you, well you guys do too. It's yeah, fantastic.

Wendy Mesley  30:30  
 Well, we have lightning.

Denise Donlon  30:32  
Yeah, well, right up there, you know? Well, you know, and it's important. I always remember that great quote from David Lee Roth, where he said, All the world's a stage and I demand better lighting. I'm, well, I'm retired. I'm a pensioner. I'm using my powers for good I hope I'm on a number of nonprofit boards, or child Canada and Salt Pepper and music counts with the Junos and just came off the GG board, which was all very difficult during COVID, obviously, like keeping the Governor General's Performing Arts Award, and they still asked me to come do their I just came off that one. So they asked me to do their interviews, which I love doing.

Maureen Holloway  31:17  
Takes you right back eh?

Denise Donlon  31:18  
It does. Yeah, it's fun. You know, we were talking about Catherine O'Hara earlier, she got a she got her TGM because it was COVID. We had to do them all outside, and we're up at Lake Muskoka, or whatever. And I didn't know that the wind gusts were up to 50 kilometers an hour. And we'd stop and start doing these questions and her hair was all over the place and it was just her hair and makeup people to come out and she must have had 172 bobby pins in the back of her head. That at one point I just said, wow, we're just not in Kansas anymore. And she was like Dorothy just went off on this whole Wizard of Oz thing. I love her so much. She's such a talent. 

Wendy Mesley  31:59  
We're gonna have to wrap up in just a sec. But I loved one of your one of your quotes, which was, well, it's hardly famous, but I, I I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. So now you're in your 60s, you're retired? Have you got it all figured out? 

Denise Donlon  32:14  
No. 

Maureen Holloway  32:15  
Do any of us really? 

Denise Donlon  32:17  
No, no, you know, but I think that again, you can you can just try and remain true to whoever you are in there. And you know, sometimes I just I don't want to go to yet another board meeting. But I'm always happy at the end of it. Even yoga. I don't ever want to go to yoga, but I'm always really happy on the way home when I when I've done it.

Maureen Holloway  32:42  
I feel the same way. Exactly. No one ever says I shouldn't have done that yoga class. I feel awful.

Denise Donlon  32:47  
Exactly. You'll never regret a swim. Or yoga class. No, it's true. So yeah, it's it's, you know, life is big still. And yeah, if you can make a contribution and still feel like you're making a contribution. That's a gift just to give you get way back more than you put in for sure.

Maureen Holloway  33:05  
Denise such a pleasure to talk to you.

Denise Donlon  33:08  
It's so great seeing you both. And Wendy, you're in the county and Maureen, where are you?

Maureen Holloway  33:13  
I'm in Toronto. 

Denise Donlon  33:14  
Oh, okay. 

Maureen Holloway  33:15  
I'm hype. Yeah, I'm in the library.

Denise Donlon  33:18  
We should do like a little thing where you take people take snapshots of their bookshelf, and then you have to try and decide whose bookshelf it is and make it a comp.

Maureen Holloway  33:26  
Then you should judge them accordingly. You know, how people would judge you from your record collections? Like they come over and go through your records and decide whether you were cool or not. Well, I feel that way about the books, I think.

Denise Donlon  33:36  
Totally, I know. You still have a lot- 

Wendy Mesley  33:40  
I got to get some books.

Denise Donlon  33:42  
No, you have books Wendy have a ton of books.

Maureen Holloway  33:45  
She does just not in the bedroom

Denise Donlon  33:46  
Probably her biggest problem.

Wendy Mesley  33:48  
Oh, yeah, I gotta hide it. 

Maureen Holloway  33:49  
Yeah, I told her I was the beginning don't have a bed in the background it's not professional unless you're a true woman of ill repute.

Wendy Mesley  34:00  
Yeah. anyway, I'm I'm inexpensive. So Denise, it's been lovely. It's nice to sort of organize a time but it's just so it was absolutely worth it's one of the reasons why we do this podcast is that we get to talk to interesting people so yeah.

Maureen Holloway  34:19  
It's the only reason because it's not the money I can tell you that.

Denise Donlon  34:23  
Must be the hair and makeup trailer and raft services. Yeah. No, it was an absolute delight. And, you know, I wish both of you massive continued success and yeah, we just keep powering on.

Wendy Mesley  34:36  
Yep, rocking rock and roll. 

Denise Donlon  34:38  
Okay, rock and roll and thank you for reading the book, Wendy. Oh my god.

Wendy Mesley  34:43  
Well, I skipped a couple of pages but it's pretty good.

Maureen Holloway  34:45  
We also used it as a boat anchor.

Denise Donlon  34:51  
Oh, that's a very good thing to do. Yeah, little bit soggy, I bet now. Well, you guys have a great day.

Maureen Holloway  34:59  
Lovely to see you.

Wendy Mesley  35:01  
Lovely to see you too. Well, I'd like to say she's lovely, but I think I've said that before, but she's lovely. 

Maureen Holloway  35:12  
 They're very few people that we have not said they are lovely. I can think of a couple of, but most of them are, I want to tell you. The first time I met Denise, well, I was invited to join the MuchMusic crew in their box at what was Maple Leaf Gardens to watch a show that I think was part of the Live Aid thing. It was with Peter Gabriel and Tracy Chapman and it was all star lineup and I was at CKFM at the time, which is now Virgin, and went join them and Denise and I were sitting next to each other. And we were talking and she said, you know you should come over to us. And I remember thinking I could never in a million years be cool enough to join this group. It was Kim Clark Campus. I think Terry David Mulligan and all those guys, but especially Denise, and now I look back and go what the hell was the matter with me? I would have loved she was the main reason I just thought she was the smartest, smartest girl in school. And, and I think I'm right.

Wendy Mesley  36:16  
Well, we've interviewed Jeanne Becker, but Denise Dolan's probably my favorite of that gang, and I wanted to make a confession. I'm glad I'm just making it to you and not to her, but I was like, no one's listening. So go ahead. No one's listening. So I'll go ahead. When I was at, at charm, when I was in high school music videos, everyone was all excited about music videos, and they she ended up working for a station for city and music and whatever that sort of glorified it. It made the most out of music videos, and I was like, I don't know. Who would watch that.

Maureen Holloway  36:55  
It's you with your finger on the pulse of pop culture all the time.

Wendy Mesley  37:02  
It was such a loser and it became such a huge, huge deal and she was she was a big part of that and I sort of feel like that's why I enjoyed her book all 37,000 pages that's why I enjoyed her book so much was it was it was like reading like we've sort of been in each other's periphery for all well like you for all of these years and but never really gotten to know her so yeah, she's she's quite a character and yeah she's inspirational too. Because yeah, so successful.

Maureen Holloway  37:33  
And yet still truly a you know, kind she's a kind person and and and super involved and funny, great storyteller. The Leonard Cohen thing gave me goosebumps. Good guest she was lovely and it's lovely to see you.

Wendy Mesley  37:47  
Lovely, Lovely. Bye.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  37:51  
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai